[protoss]

closest to this A800

No headphone is close to A800, especially estats, because A800 has subbass and bass with an HD600 sound signature. It is almost as good as you can get in a headphone.

To reach a 90% or higher, the headphone must be damped heavy. Even DCA Expanse is heavily damp. Until the day a headphone driver is factory-made at a 100% curve, headphones will not see a revolution. Until then, all headphones must be heavy-duty damp and custom designed for their cups.

All electrostatic headphones are flawed and have problems. The best estats available today is the Sonoma Model One. It has a 90% curve that lacks bass, and cost $5000, sadly. The second and third best is the Stax L300 and L700, with problems and a lack of bass.

The best three random driver techs (85 to 90%) available today are;

1. Sonoma Model One
2. Hifiman HE6SE2
3. HD800S

Here are three models with three different driver techs that are high in the curve but have problems that are available today to buy.

With the membrane, the thinner it gets, the more natural the sound should be, in theory. We already know what is natural, which is following the curve to the point.

The best estats energizer (transformer box) is probably the SRD-7, spritzer sells for $1000. Get that, buy a clean-rated speaker amp, and you should be good to go with Stax L700 (l700 is not perfect and lacks in lots of areas, or get 007A for fun), or just get Sonoma Model One as a unit.

Legendary Tyll did a review.

 

[normie610]

A 90% curve, that lacks bass

So does this mean that the missing 10% is in the bass region?

 

[protoss]

missing 10%

I call it distortion.

Closer to the curve, the more natural and smooth the sound will be. With less to no spike issues, for example treble problems or lack bass.

 

[VandyMan]

I call it distortion.

Closer to the curve, the more natural and smooth the sound will be. With less to no spike issues, for example treble problems or lack bass.

You can call it distortion, but it is of course not distortion by any standard audio definition.

Too much bass by 5 dB would be the exact same percentage difference as too little bass by 5 dB.

All electrostatic headphones are flawed and have problems. The best estat available today is the Sonoma Model One.

The Sonoma has EQ built into its amplifier. If you are willing to use EQ, many headphones can be corrected to be very close to the Harmon curve.

 

[protoss]

@VandyMan

Agree. This is why I gave the curve a baseline of 90%, we should probably dB here and there to get the perfect sound. A800 is called masterclass as it did this.

On my og post, I mention leave 10% for distortion to prevent monitoring-sounding headphone. But the headphone must be min 90% to be considered natural.

On another topic, what if there is HD800 at a 100% curve? With its huge soundstage. A blasting 100% curve HD800. What does that really mean?

 

[SHAMuuu]

No headphone is close to A800, especially estats, because A800 has subbass and bass with an HD600 sound signature. It is almost as good as you can get in a headphone.

To reach a 90% or higher, the headphone must be damped heavy. Even DCA Expanse is heavily damp. Until the day a headphone driver is factory-made at a 100% curve, headphones will not see a revolution. Until then, all headphones must be heavy-duty damp and custom designed for their cups.

All electrostatic headphones are flawed and have problems. The best estats available today is the Sonoma Model One. It has a 90% curve that lacks bass, and cost $5000, sadly. The second and third best is the Stax L300 and L700, with problems and a lack of bass.

The best three random driver techs (85 to 90%) available today are;

1. Sonoma Model One
2. Hifiman HE6SE2
3. HD800S

Here are three models with three different driver techs that are high in the curve but have problems that are available today to buy.

With the membrane, the thinner it gets, the more natural the sound should be, in theory. We already know what is natural, which is following the curve to the point.

The best estats energizer (transformer box) is probably the SRD-7, spritzer sells for $1000. Get that, buy a clean-rated speaker amp, and you should be good to go with Stax L700 (l700 is not perfect and lacks in lots of areas, or get 007A for fun), or just get Sonoma Model One as a unit.

Legendary Tyll did a review.

Thanks for the detailed response protoss.

Some of the models you mention that are not particularly not good, and the ones you mention were at the top are a bit conflicting for my ears. That is to say, some of the ones deemed unnatural sounded the more natural to me. So not sure if there were gains or some other ear voodo which fixed the signature for me.

Aside from the uber god tier like he-1 or SL sr. etc, I have been lucky enough to audition the lineup of stax. And I was really hoping the L 7 hundos would be like an endgame, but i found them a little more intense than expected (though quite comfortable with the sheepskin thick rectangle pads). And as much as I didn't want to like their flagship x9k, because well its uber pricey, it was to me, more to my liking.

It does get a bit of shock factor from trying and reading and guessing about them, so I hope I do get a chance to hear the a800 one day.

really, that is the only way to know XD

 

[protoss]

This is a simple answer

Let's say 65% is your headphone, as long you have a balance treble and mids that balance off the rest of the wonky frequency (which is bad) your ears will to a certain degree consider it natural but not 100%
This can easily be said for 007, R10 and others.

 

[SHAMuuu]

This is a simple answer

Let's say 65% is your headphone, as long you have a balance treble and mids that balance off the rest of the wonky frequency (which is bad) your ears will to a certain degree consider it natural but not 100%
This can easily be said for 007, R10 and others.

That sounds something similar to some information shared by Paul Barton (of PSB speakers) in his research. He obv goes into much more details; it was in one of the RMAF panel talks. But he was talking about the brain's ability to fix a lot of errors in the mids and treble (as long as they were within certain parameters of normal / or some balance), but it was very difficult for the brain to do so with frequency 1k and below.

It was interesting to hear his views on headphones.

If this is not what you are talking about, then I must have misunderstood.

 

[bfin3]

Yeah, I just got another one. Now I have 3

One for each gear.

Portable system,
Tube system,
Solid state system.

You know you can unplug them from one system and into another right?

 

[protoss]

@bfin3
Let's just say I have 2 extra spare drivers for a excellent discontinued headphone. I don't ever need to hunt this down anymore

@SHAMuuu
I agree with them all, with slight disagreement. Overall, I noticed each of them trying to figure out what's the best frequency. To me it's definitely close to the Harman Curve at 90%
And only the A800 come close to perfect.

Most likely something will beat it in the future. I have a feeling it will cost like $10,000 thou

 

[BoyNamedSue]

@protoss, its awesome such a modestly priced headphone is your favorite, which is high praise given your extensive experience. It reminds me of a headfier who owned a he90, r10, qualia, utopia, 009, etc..., and their favorite was a grado ps1000. Just shows that personal preference is king.

I hear your point of having a reference for good sound, especially as a check and balance to the soaring prices of modern flagships, which is getting ridiculous and pricing out folks like myself from this hobby. However, I'm not sure if the Harmon curve is it. IMO, evaluating based on a frequency curve is quite reductionistic, and does not take into account the multitude of factors that constitute good sound.

Regarding the A800's, I appreciate Protoss for the pro tip on grabbing a pair. I find them to be a very competent headphone that punches way above its price tag. Mine was purchased used with a generic aftermarket cable, so I may not be hearing their full glory, but here are some brief impressions:

• The build quality is solid and I really like the ear pad mechanism that pivots and gives a great seal. Oversized headband is really comfy.
• They scale with better gear. On lesser gear, they sounded muddy, veiled, and boring. However, they sound vibrant, emotive, and grand when paired with my Abbas 2.2SE DAC and Woo WA5 Amp. I assume Protoss listens to his pair on his EC Studio B, so A800's may have good synergy with 300B tube amps.
• Bass digs deep and bass notes have a nice heft/weight/rumble with good definition. Not as tight or punchy as my ZMF's, but feels just as powerful and more controlled, and perhaps more accurate. The A800 sounds like the Z1R bass done right. There is an ever-present sub-bass on familiar tracks that I am not used to.
• Treble is clear and crisp, and has nice sparkle to it. Not rolled off and not harsh on good recordings. However, on non-acoustic recordings (e.g., popular music), treble can be metallic and screechy, and vocals sibilant and strident.
• Wish for a bit more midrange clarity. Neither veiled or recessed, but lacking some of the nuances that flesh out the intonations and emotions in vocals. Perhaps some bass bleeding into mid-range, which gives a weight and a richness to vocals, but at expense of expressive/nimble-ness. Male voices sound better than female.
• Details/resolution/transparency approaches summit-fi, but fall short of most electrostatics and some high-end planars. However, the detail presentation sounds more realistic than a headphone like a Raal that pushes details forward and can be fatiguing.
• Overall flow of the music is natural, but seems a bit slow after listening to faster headphones. The music never gets ahead of itself, unlike the Raal and Jade 2's which make music sound like its playing on 1.5x speed. However, the music does not flow like water compared to my Jade 2's, or does not have the toe tapping effect like my Aeolus.
• Size of sound stage morphs (intimate to large) based on recording. Images seem locked into place. Really good depth, sounds 3-D with tubes. Realistic instrument separation. Maintains good control and separation during fast and complex passages.
• On good recordings, there are no weird peaks or dips. Everything sounds like the real thing. However, they scale down with poor or synthetic recordings.
• Acoustic instruments sound really (really) good. Natural timbre. Piano, percussions, wind and string instruments all sound natural and real, and have a depth and weight to them. Sounds just pop followed by a natural decay. You can hear the inner detail of each instrument. Really brings out the emotion in instruments. Best I've heard LA4's Best Friend album.
• The A800's pair well with a musical and energetic DAC/AMP's and can sound boring off the wrong gear. This is unlike the TH900 which sound fun on most pairings.

Overall, the A800's may be my new reference for acoustic instruments. Listening to Yiruma playing piano as I write this, and the sound pulls at my heart strings. However, there are several headphones I would choose over the A800's for vocals, even perhaps the humble HD650's. It is my understanding that Onkyo collaborated with Gibson instruments for the tuning for the A800, and this collab really shows in how great acoustic instruments sound.

 

[SHAMuuu]

@protoss, its awesome such a modestly priced headphone is your favorite, which is high praise given your extensive experience. It reminds me of a headfier who owned a he90, r10, qualia, utopia, 009, etc..., and their favorite was a grado ps1000. Just shows that personal preference is king.

I hear your point of having a reference for good sound, especially as a check and balance to the soaring prices of modern flagships, which is getting ridiculous and pricing out folks like myself from this hobby. However, I'm not sure if the Harmon curve is it. IMO, evaluating based on a frequency curve is quite reductionistic, and does not take into account the multitude of factors that constitute good sound.

Regarding the A800's, I appreciate Protoss for the pro tip on grabbing a pair. I find them to be a very competent headphone that punches way above its price tag. Mine was purchased used with a generic aftermarket cable, so I may not be hearing their full glory, but here are some brief impressions:

• The build quality is solid and I really like the ear pad mechanism that pivots and gives a great seal. Oversized headband is really comfy.
• They scale with better gear. On lesser gear, they sounded muddy, veiled, and boring. However, they sound vibrant, emotive, and grand when paired with my Abbas 2.2SE DAC and Woo WA5 Amp. I assume Protoss listens to his pair on his EC Studio B, so A800's may have good synergy with 300B tube amps.
• Bass digs deep and bass notes have a nice heft/weight/rumble with good definition. Not as tight or punchy as my ZMF's, but feels just as powerful and more controlled, and perhaps more accurate. The A800 sounds like the Z1R bass done right. There is an ever-present sub-bass on familiar tracks that I am not used to.
• Treble is clear and crisp, and has nice sparkle to it. Not rolled off and not harsh on good recordings. However, on non-acoustic recordings (e.g., popular music), treble can be metallic and screechy, and vocals sibilant and strident.
• Wish for a bit more midrange clarity. Neither veiled or recessed, but lacking some of the nuances that flesh out the intonations and emotions in vocals. Perhaps some bass bleeding into mid-range, which gives a weight and a richness to vocals, but at expense of expressive/nimble-ness. Male voices sound better than female.
• Details/resolution/transparency approaches summit-fi, but fall short of most electrostatics and some high-end planars. However, the detail presentation sounds more realistic than a headphone like a Raal that pushes details forward and can be fatiguing.
• Overall flow of the music is natural, but seems a bit slow after listening to faster headphones. The music never gets ahead of itself, unlike the Raal and Jade 2's which make music sound like its playing on 1.5x speed. However, the music does not flow like water compared to my Jade 2's, or does not have the toe tapping effect like my Aeolus.
• Size of sound stage morphs (intimate to large) based on recording. Images seem locked into place. Really good depth, sounds 3-D with tubes. Realistic instrument separation. Maintains good control and separation during fast and complex passages.
• On good recordings, there are no weird peaks or dips. Everything sounds like the real thing. However, they scale down with poor or synthetic recordings.
• Acoustic instruments sound really (really) good. Natural timbre. Piano, percussions, wind and string instruments all sound natural and real, and have a depth and weight to them. Sounds just pop followed by a natural decay. You can hear the inner detail of each instrument. Really brings out the emotion in instruments. Best I've heard LA4's Best Friend album.
• The A800's pair well with a musical and energetic DAC/AMP's and can sound boring off the wrong gear. This is unlike the TH900 which sound fun on most pairings.

Overall, the A800's may be my new reference for acoustic instruments. Listening to Yiruma playing piano as I write this, and the sound pulls at my heart strings. However, there are several headphones I would choose over the A800's for vocals, even perhaps the humble HD650's. It is my understanding that Onkyo collaborated with Gibson instruments for the tuning for the A800, and this collab really shows in how great acoustic instruments sound.

Quite balanced observations there.

The pads used by protoss are Yaxi, so I imagine the sound would be different to some degree.

What headphones do you choose over the a800 for vocals/midrange?

 

[godsound101]

Great thread, great information. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Pastwa]

If someone is a hard core Harman's Curve believer and nothing else matters then these are the best headphones in our galaxy, the A800 is very low on that list and probably unlistenable for the Shure owners. lol

1. Shure SRH440 - HC score 95%,
2. HiFi Man Sundara (220 revised earpads) - 93%,
3. HiFI Man Sundara 2020 - 92%,
4. Sennheiser HD 560S - 92%,
5. Sennheiser HD 600 - 92%,
6. Beyerdynamic MMX 300 - 91%,
7. DCA Aeon 2 - 91%,
8. Philips Fidelio X2HR - 91%,
9. Sennheiser HD 600 (2020) - 90%,
10. Warwick Acoustic Sonoma Model One - 90% (very disappointing sound at the price, imho),
11. Onkyo A800 - 90%,

 

[sonics]

Pretty much agree with the impressions above. A800 is a great find anyway.