[number1sixerfan]

As others mentioned, this is just an erroneous application of data.

The best way to apply the Harman Curve (for seasoned users, if into leveraging it) would be to understand how close your personal preference is to it to then use that output/learning as a reference (based on how close they come, or taking into consideration various nuances of how they don't) and supplemental data point to your own hearing.

Trying to mold your preferences to that of an average curve, given the subjectivity and variables of the hobby simply doesn't make sense. It makes even less sense to use this data as a ranking for headphones. Now if that's something someone prefers to do personally, have it at... but as a broad premise for judging summit-fi, or any other gear, is just doesn't make any sense.

I personally don't care at all about the Harman Curve, but do think as mentioned it can be relevant and helpful--just like other "more" objective data points in combination with your own ears. I'd put far more stock in you simply making a list with the A800 as #1 based on solely on your hearing rather than how it maps to the HC. Just my $0.02

 

[VandyMan]

“Even if you hit the target, you must boost and manipulate the cups and design to make them lively and memorable. If not, the Harman curve will sound dull, boring, and monitor-sounding.”

Changes to the cups, etc change the frequency response aka the curve. So to say that a headphone must follow the Harman Curve as closely as possible, but also not follow it, is a contradiction. Dull, boring, and monitor-sounding are all based on the frequency response.

 

[protoss]

Incorrect,

90% means non irregularities aka smoothness and natural. Anything under 90% is unnatural.

Hifiman SR is a unnatural mess at 65% curve.
All other headphones around 50 to 80% are frequency errors producing unnatural sound. This means spikes, treble problems, and distortion for the bad.

To fix: this is your misunderstood contradiction. Is to be a Onkyo A800. A better version of the Harman Curve. For me to type this here is you didn't read my og post properly. Owell

Cheers

 

[VandyMan]

90% means that it has 10% deviation from a curve that represents user preferences in listening tests. It is not a measure of naturalness. It has no information about smoothness or spikes. The deviation could match the approximate shape of the curve, but vary in amplitude. Or, it could have a completely different shape, but still be smooth.

Edit:

 

[VandyMan]

That said, I would love to hear this headphone. Pretty cool that it matches Harmon that closely.

 

[protoss]

@VandyMan

You should! I highly recommend. It's great

Luxury looks and feel. Respectable price and has bass. Lovely cables.

These 2 reviewers knows what's up
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/onkyo-a800-50mm-open-back-headphone.21679/reviews

 

[protoss]

measurement chart for the hp-1000?

Not many measurements out there for the legendary HP1000.

You and I will agree that it's one of the best sounds out there. The only problem is that A800 is the full deal. It has the full frequencies range covered. Furthermore, I did a full 180 in all my decision-making because of it. Headphones like Sony R10 at 65%, Hifiman SR at 65%, RAAL SR1a at 65%, 007MK1 at 70%, and Suavara at 80%, to name a few, are just not impressive to me anymore. A $6000 headphone with a curve rating of 80% is an insult.
The ATH-L5000 at a 55% curve is laughable. Audio Technica W2022, priced at $9000, will be a joke in the making. Predicting a min 70% curve, if less, they should call the item highway robbery.

The HD800S is at an 85% curve. Maybe this is a personal reason why I accept it as one of the best, but it has problems.
Only a handful of headphones at 90%+, about 14 the most, if I count. The other 1000 headphones are well below 90% with crazy unnatural frequency responses.

Onkyo A800 is what I consider the people champ. $399 price! A decent nice look and feel with almost a perfect sound is the endgame.

 

[catscratch]

Isn't the harman curve just the average of listener preferences in a blind test of the same exact headphone just equalized to different FRs? If that's the case, then assuming that the harman curve is THE correct response for every listener is just a misunderstanding of the data. Yeah it is more likely that the harman curve will be correct for a listener than other curves, but it's not guaranteed.

On top of that, if I remember right, there's quite a bit of variation in preference at different places on the curve, below 300hz the bass shelf isn't right for every listener, above 2khz you start seeing some variations in preferred pinna gain, and above 4khz it's pretty much a total crapshoot with a lot of variation in preferred treble response.

TL;DR if you want to get the perfect curve, learn to EQ.

 

[protoss]

misunderstanding of the data

The curve is close to the natural frequency response of what humans agree on.
Here's an example, The HD800 ignores the curve and pops off at 6K. The curve tells us not to pop off, or we get treble problems. And the end results are well known. The Hd800 has treble problems. Because of that, HD800 loses points and falls to still an impressive 85% curve.
BLUE - Harman Curve
BLACK- HD800S popping off for its famous 6k unnatural spike.

Imagine 100% Harman Curve HD800 headphones with its crazy soundstage !

TL;DR if you want to get the perfect curve, learn to EQ.

I think you meant, "hunt down the the peoples champ Onkyo A800 $399!"

 

[SHAMuuu]

The curve is close to the natural frequency response of what humans agree on.
Here's an example, The HD800 ignores the curve and pops off at 6K. The curve tells us not to pop off, or we get treble problems. And the end results are well known. The Hd800 has treble problems. Because of that, HD800 loses points and falls to still an impressive 85% curve.
BLUE - Harman Curve
BLACK- HD800S popping off for its famous 6k unnatural spike.


Imagine 100% Harman Curve HD800 headphones with its crazy soundstage !


I think you meant, "hunt down the the peoples champ Onkyo A800 $399!"

You make some good points (overall in this thread) about some TOTL.

I think with some headphones, the goal of maximum resolution and trying to stretch the soundstage at times; nay, dig more environmental cues (e.g venue reflections) can sometimes result in a slightly unnatural sound.


I think most people are afraid to speak highly on certain mid-fi heavy weights , but when you have a collection/experience like protoss, the words hit different.

Also, I think it's important to remember the pads were changed to yaxi, and in the pic it's hooked up to a beastly eddie C

 

[Failed Engineer]

For reference what are your top headphones

For me, it's a trio that's a tier of its own.

1. Focal Utopia OG
2. Stax SR-007A (better than MK1)
3. Grado HP-2

These are headphones I've lived with for 5+ years each so not flavor of the week impressions.

 

[protoss]

Excellent list, I will just replace Utopia with A800. And I can live with these 3 also for 25 years

1. A800
2. 007A (it is the better version )
3. HP1000

 

[Chefguru]

For me, it's a trio that's a tier of its own.

1. Focal Utopia OG
2. Stax SR-007A (better than MK1)
3. Grado HP-2

These are headphones I've lived with for 5+ years each so not flavor of the week impressions.

007A with blue tact mod?

 

[protoss]

007A

007 is a coloration headphone, aka unnatural. And scores equal to Hifiman SR, R10, RAAL Sr1A, etch…
I like it, as it gives me that euphonic sound—distortion like L3000. With the mod, you can get even closer to that euphonic sound. The 007A is the better model because it fix all the issues with the Mk1, such as cable issues, and driver imbalance. With the mod, its a complete version but by no means natural.
I call the 007 the Nirvana frequency. There are many problems with it, but there might be something to it. I highly doubt it because lower than 90% is all unnatural elements to the sound.

L300-----------86%
L700
Lambda Pro
Lambda Nova
404LE-----------80%
009
L500
L300LTD
007A2.9---------68%

What Stax needs to do is, perfect the L300 and L700 models or use the lambda pro as an example. The Lambda pro 1983 is another insult of a headphones to all 2022 headphones and beyond. A 30+ year-old headphone still can't be beaten by 2022 headphones.

 

[SHAMuuu]

007 is a coloration headphone, aka unnatural. And scores equal to Hifiman SR, R10, RAAL Sr1A, etch…
I like it, as it gives me that euphonic sound—distortion like L3000. With the mod, you can get even closer to that euphonic sound. The 007A is the better model because it fix all the issues with the Mk1, such as cable issues, and driver imbalance. With the mod, its a complete version but by no means natural.
I call the 007 the Nirvana frequency. There are many problems with it, but there might be something to it. I highly doubt it because lower than 90% is all unnatural elements to the sound.

L300-----------86%
L700
Lambda Pro
Lambda Nova
404LE-----------80%
009
L500
L300LTD
007A2.9---------68%

What Stax needs to do is, perfect the L300 and L700 models or use the lambda pro as an example. The Lambda pro 1983 is another insult of a headphones to all 2022 headphones and beyond. A 30+ year-old headphone still can't be beaten by 2022 headphones.

What are the ratings for the NB stuff of the past. I have read some views of people liking the natural sound of the Lambda NB, as well as srx-mkiii (both NB and PRO) in terms of it's balance.

Also, and I mentioned this in stax threads, they used to use that yellow micron glass/ foam material right behind the driver. Do you think that helped with the taming of some of the peaks?

It seems you have lot's of stax knowledge, so which one is the closest to this A800? The 007A or more of the vintage stax sound?

Also, and I realize I am asking a lot, but do you have opinion on the thickness of the planar membranes? B/C Sennheiser I think said 2.4 microns is ideal from their research, which is closer to the normal bias stax of past. I know they went down to 1 micron thickness in the pro stuff and roughly 1.35 and 1.5 for some of their 007/009 IIRC,

Are they more ideal with energerizers and high quality receivers (the older models) or the more modern amplifier/energizer combos?

Thank You