[Mediaogre]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellenback /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry for the off-topic but what DAC chip does the new Zune use? I've found on most of the DAPs I've listened to (not many) that leaving the headphone out at low volume and letting the amp do all the work usually makes the difference between line out and HO less of an issue (but I'm aware that's heresy to the purists ).

It's a Wolfson DAC. I'm not sure of the specs or model number. Maybe dfkt can chime in if he's lurking nearby? All I know is that the little player is super quiet (except for the occassional hard drive spin-up "farting"

).

The purists will chafe at using the HO as the "line out" but as many of the fine members over at anythingbutipod will echo is, "What choice do we have?" Even an LOD(C?) (I've never understood that misnomer. In the context of portable amps, it's really a Line Out Cable ) modded for a Samsung P3 plugged into a portable amp still allows one to control volume and effects via the DAP UI which raises the obvious question: is the proprietary port on the P3 a true line out? UGH!

"Stay on target..." Anyway, I'm crossing my fingers that the svelte Arrow will render all our worries about unorthadox usage moot. (But not mute )

 

[dfkt]

I'm always lurking.

The Zune HD uses a WM8352, the older ones used WM8350. Pretty much the same stuff that's in Cowons, some Meizus, and (IIRC) some older iPods. Output caps in the signal path should provide the usual flaws as found on those kinds of players: bass roll-off, stereo crosstalk, hiss with low-imp/hi-sens phones, etc... it often helps with these players to use a decent dedicated amp on the already amped headphone out, in my experience - it fixes some issues. (Whereas better analog stage designs with decent SoCs, like AMS Sansas or Sony players, usually don't benefit much from an amp.)


I'm very much looking forward to the Arrow... wonder if it will replace my Headsix on my Cowon S9, my T4 on my Cowon O2... or both.

 

[Mediaogre]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfkt /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm always lurking. The Zune HD uses a WM8352, the older ones used WM8350. Pretty much the same stuff that's in Cowons, some Meizus, and (IIRC) some older iPods. Output caps in the signal path should provide the usual flaws as found on those kinds of players: bass roll-off, stereo crosstalk, hiss with low-imp/hi-sens phones, etc... it often helps with these players to use a decent dedicated amp on the already amped headphone out, in my experience - it fixes some issues. (Whereas better analog stage designs with decent SoCs, like AMS Sansas or Sony players, usually don't benefit much from an amp.) I'm very much looking forward to the Arrow... wonder if it will replace my Headsix on my Cowon S9, my T4 on my Cowon O2... or both.

Ha! That's dkft, folks. I thought you'd come through. Thanks. I have the Zune 80 v2. I think it has the same DAC (and the same for the 120) but I'm not sure. How do you obtain those specifications? Cracking cases, I'm guessing.

Although, internal components may be rebranded by MS, so maybe you have dev team contacts.

I appreciate the input, given your historical standpoint (And I agree on this) on the mostly futile effort of trying to extract "pure" sound from these little gizmos (DAPs not amps). I'm hoping the Arrow will at least provide SOME improved soundstage with my se530s (Most masterings sound like all the music is right in the middle of my head.) and some bass punch. I don't care what folks say or how many drivers Shure crammed into those cabs. Unless you're comfortable with triple flanges tickling your tympanic membrane, the bass is anemic. I also hope to gain a wider soundstage with my Senn HD500As, tighter bass (it's there now just sort of muddy and subdued) and less sibilant highs. (Oh, and being able to drive them properly will be nice.)

This has been a really fun thread. We flirt off topic and then come back, and we're all stuck together waiting and listening for the jingle of sleigh bells.

 

[Hellenback]

I don't understand why these companies don't just put the best dac chip possible in their players, offer a line out option and charge the extra few dollars it would cost them. They'd carry the hi-fi market and not lose any mid-fi customers. Maybe I'm off on this but I don't think the price difference on the Wolfson 8740 or BB1796 is much more than a $2->$3. (BB1792 dac chip is more, but likely overkill anyway).

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellenback /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't understand why these companies don't just put the best dac chip possible in their players, offer a line out option and charge the extra few dollars it would cost them. They'd carry the hi-fi market and not lose any mid-fi customers. Maybe I'm off on this but I don't think the price difference on the Wolfson 8740 or BB1796 is much more than a $2->$3. (BB1792 dac chip is more, but likely overkill anyway).

Most companies have between 5 to 20 times markup on manufacturing costs. So $2 could end up being $10 to $40 more for the player that the mainstream audience (most consumers) wouldn't notice with the stock buds they use

And I want my Arrow! Hope tomorrow is the day.

 

[rehabitat]

and there's more to improved sq than simply upgrading a dac chip; there are associated components and implementation issues...

v - precisely

 

[average_joe]

Which add even more to the cost

 

[Hellenback]

Quote:

and there's more to improved sq than simply upgrading a dac chip; there are associated components and implementation issues...

obviously and last off topic comment....I think a better dac chip (with even the same components/implementation) would likely offer better SQ and there is no (good) reason to mark everything up by 5->20 times. IMO

 

[rehabitat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellenback /img/forum/go_quote.gif there is no (good) reason to mark everything up by 5->20 times. IMO

,except capitalism, which, ironically, is the main driver behind improvements in technology these days. It's a vicious circle

...

I think the waiting has caused this thread to degenerate into impressions of postal services and other irrelevancies, and is not a reflection on the thread title as it was renamed in the last week or so. Perhaps a new impressions thread should be opened after the current wave of Arrow orders is received and evaluated, and that this thread be renamed again so that the large number of viewers are not continuing to get the wrong impression of the product and its seller?

 

[cn11]

Well hopefully I'll receive mine this week!

 

[Mediaogre]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rehabitat /img/forum/go_quote.gif ,except capitalism, which, ironically, is the main driver behind improvements in technology these days. It's a vicious circle ... I think the waiting has caused this thread to degenerate into impressions of postal services and other irrelevancies, and is not a reflection on the thread title as it was renamed in the last week or so. Perhaps a new impressions thread should be opened after the current wave of Arrow orders is received and evaluated, and that this thread be renamed again so that the large number of viewers are not continuing to get the wrong impression of the product and its seller?

Lol! I'm laughing, rehabitat, but you're totally right. This thread's dynamic is annoying but also an interesting and very cool example of the organic nature of good, healthy forum discussion. Your point about impressions, both thread-related and Headphonia-related is a good one. As this thread gets indexed, it'll irritate folks just poking around for a review and impressions of Robert and his products.

Perhaps this thread could be renamed, "Waiting in line with a sleeping bag, hot chocolate and friends for what we hope are Rush tickets."

Shauntell47, I apologize. I'm at least partially responsible for the off-topic degradation.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellenback /img/forum/go_quote.gif obviously and last off topic comment....I think a better dac chip (with even the same components/implementation) would likely offer better SQ and there is no (good) reason to mark everything up by 5->20 times. IMO

Since I am still waiting and can't help myself, the reason for the markup is actually a good one IMO. First, the markup depends on the product type, brand name etc. You have to look at the total cost of doing business vs. just the manufacture cost. Support, returns, defects, shipping, advertising, resellers markup, R&D, IT, management, etc. If the markup is lower, something else has to go, or the company will go. Then you have less competition and less innovation. Competition keeps prices relatively low. I could write so much more, will stop.

So, from that perspective, the Arrow may be a steal. It looks like the Pico Slim, and if it sounds like the Pico Slim (maybe not necessarily the same sound sig, but the same quality of sound) it will truly be a steal, especially with the flexibility. And I will know eventually, after I receive both and both burn in!

 

[SoupRKnowva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by average_joe /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since I am still waiting and can't help myself, the reason for the markup is actually a good one IMO. First, the markup depends on the product type, brand name etc. You have to look at the total cost of doing business vs. just the manufacture cost. Support, returns, defects, shipping, advertising, resellers markup, R&D, IT, management, etc. If the markup is lower, something else has to go, or the company will go. Then you have less competition and less innovation. Competition keeps prices relatively low. I could write so much more, will stop. So, from that perspective, the Arrow may be a steal. It looks like the Pico Slim, and if it sounds like the Pico Slim (maybe not necessarily the same sound sig, but the same quality of sound) it will truly be a steal, especially with the flexibility. And I will know eventually, after I receive both and both burn in!

if not for the protector i would probably be getting one of these as well as the slim, but as it is the slim and protector are damaging my wallet far to much in the next week

 

[Trapper32]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mediaogre /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perhaps this thread could be renamed, "Waiting in line with a sleeping bag, hot chocolate and friends for what we hope are Rush tickets." .

You still have hot chocolate????

 

[Shauntell47]

thx a lot guys, should have just left the title as it was, "Has anyone received the Headstage Arrow yet?"...

btw, the wait is normal, i personally waited at least 3 weeks when i got my lyrix, so just be patient people...

plus, he might not have expected that so many head-fiers would be ordering the arrow...