[james444]

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Armed with a trusty old Clip+ filled with 256kbps VBR tracks.. There' 

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256k files????
 
I know I'm going to get flamed for this but how can someone considering the purchase of $ 1150 ear pieces listen to music that is that "lossy"??

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@ raelamn, good point.  The Clip isn't the best source, and 256K isn't lossless.  What I lose out on from a better player and and when using lossy vs. lossless is the space, instrument placement, and subtle nuances in the music, which results in a smaller, more congested and less defined soundstage.

 
Oh, give him a break. 256VBR is pretty much lame -V0 (extreme) and I'd really love to watch you guys ABX this with lossless.

 
Funny how folks always seem to get excited about lossy files and no one ever asks about the actual music. Lady Gaga in lossless still sounds worse than Diana Krall in lame -V2 (standard). Don't want to offend any Lady Gaga fans, just using her as a synonym for a plethora of awfully compressed and badly produced popular records out there.
 
@OP very interesting thread, thanks for sharing your impressions. If you decide to stay with universals, you should consider the Sony EX1000.

 

[music_4321]

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Oh, give him a break. 256VBR is pretty much lame -V0 (extreme) and I'd really love to watch you guys ABX this with lossless...
 

x 2
 

 

[Br777]

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x 2
 

 
I recall being stunned when i failed a 128 vs 320 blind test with my $1800 thunderpants rig when i had it.   compression in music has come a LOOOONG way since it was first introduced.
 

 

[buz]

I was sort of expecting someone in the first post to complain about the lossy files
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@ raelamn, good point.  The Clip isn't the best source, and 256K isn't lossless.  What I lose out on from a better player and and when using lossy vs. lossless is the space, instrument placement, and subtle nuances in the music, which results in a smaller, more congested and less defined soundstage.  And that TWag cable sure makes a difference, at least with my EM3 Pro!
 
@ buz: I take it you are using a much better source path for your D2000, correct?  Does that source path improve the sound of your other IEMs?  You are really crippling the JH's with the source, the files, and the universal part IMO.

At home I run it out of my NG98 and an M-Stage but I have had rather minor improvements in driving my FX500 out of that compared to the Clip. The D2000 is probably on the easy to drive side anyway, it sounds pretty ok even out of a decent laptop headphone out (which is not true for my RX700, for example).
 
 


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Oh, give him a break. 256VBR is pretty much lame -V0 (extreme) and I'd really love to watch you guys ABX this with lossless.

 
Funny how folks always seem to get excited about lossy files and no one ever asks about the actual music. Lady Gaga in lossless still sounds worse than Diana Krall in lame -V2 (standard). Don't want to offend any Lady Gaga fans, just using her as a synonym for a plethora of awfully compressed and badly produced popular records out there.
 
@OP very interesting thread, thanks for sharing your impressions. If you decide to stay with universals, you should consider the Sony EX1000.

I know you love them, but at that price, I can easily get 1964Qs Plus I don't want to support the shady business tactics Sony is renowned for (the latest PS3 complaints are just one in a long list..)
 

 

[music_4321]

 
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I recall being stunned when i failed a 128 vs 320 blind test with my $1800 thunderpants rig when i had it.   compression in music has come a LOOOONG way since it was first introduced.
 

I actually use 192 AAC (VBR) files with my $850 custom ES3X and $450 universal W4s. Also, 2 years ago I sold my 2 portable amps -  one very highly regarded - and 3 LODs. These days I get great SQ from just my Sony A857 + ES3X/ W4, no amps, no LODs and no expensive aftermarket cables. Before settling for 192 kbps, I did extensive A/B'ing with all manner of lossy & lossless files (played at random).

On the subject of custom demo units, I said this in a different thread: a lot has to be said about how each of us hears universal IEMs or custom demo IEMs with different tips. I've never had problems with single flange silicon tips, most other tips never providing as good SQ. In my case proof I was getting the 'right' sound with such tips came when I got my customs.

I think that apart from the hyping and exaggeration often seen round here regarding custom vs universal IEMs, there are a few genuine cases of people never managing to get the right/ best fit and, therefore, never getting the best sound out of their (top-tier) universals; consequently they get a significant SQ improvement when they get into customs territory. Unfortunately, a lot of people are led believe that customs take SQ to a whole new level. My W4 have nothing to envy my ES3X on SQ & comfort. Yes, my ES3X have better build-quality and a replaceable cable  -which some universals now have - and a little better isolation, but not better SQ and comfort than my W4s, and my ES3Xs are only a little better sounding than my UM3X.
 

 

[raelamb]

Last comment from me on this:
 
The sound of music starts with the source. If we are talking about a hobby that sucks up so much of our money striving for incremental improvements in our gear that costs alot of money why not invest in a stinking cheap - ass external hard drive and rip our music lossless? Maybe it's because I'm in the music business for 30 years but I find 128/256 UNLISTENABLE.
 
It just don't make no kinda sense.

 

[buz]

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The sound of music starts with the source. If we are talking about a hobby that sucks up so much of our money striving for incremental improvements in our gear that costs alot of money why not invest in a stinking cheap - ass external hard drive and rip our music lossless? Maybe it's because I'm in the music business for 30 years but I find 128/256 UNLISTENABLE.
 
It just don't make no kinda sense.

Because they do not really work while traveling. Ever tried to use an external hard drive on a plane? Exactly. This whole discussion is on the premise that things need to be portable, if they did not, I could get an LCD-2 and be done.
 
 

 

[raelamb]

So get a 160 gig Ipod classic and move things in and out. Not that difficult or inconvenient. Considering the many things we head-fiers do in the pursuit of "absolute sound" it's pretty much a no-brainer

 

[average_joe]

 
Let me throw in another 0.02 from the previous several posts and a little clarification.  Is 192K or 256K a killer for me, no.  There are many pop songs, let me correct that, most pop songs where I can't hear any difference at all between a 192K and FLAC file no matter how much I A/B back and forth.  Then, there are other songs, electronic, acoustic, etc. where I can hear anywhere from a tiny difference to a little difference.  IMO it is the mastering that makes the most difference...if the mastering is done well, there is more to lose so to say.
 
As far as sources, I find much bigger differences when A/Bing sources than lossy/lossless files (however, there are bigger differences with better DACs).  I am not saying the Clip headphone out are bad with balanced armatures, but I do think my amps are better, but then the DAC is also better.  Of course all of these are incrementally small improvements and the biggest improvement is with the actual headphones, but the rule of diminishing returns comes into play as well.  
 
Both James and the bird know they don't hear things the same way I do.  Nothing wrong with that and differing opinions help people compare and contrast and realize what they really want. The OP might perceive IEMs the way you guys do instead of the way I do.  I know the #1 thing for me with headphones, both IEMs and cans, is the soundstage; what are the dimensions, proportions, and how are things placed.  And because of that, little nuances make a difference to me and are somewhat easy for me to pick up on.  But, there are other things that can sway me away from just soundstage, as was the case with the Tesla T1 vs. the LCD-2, as the LCD-2 has a more intimate soundstage, but sounded more natural to me.  
 
It also seems that many times on here, instead of accepting that people hear things differently people act like someone's opinion is wrong (not saying anyone in particular).  So, if someone feels a certain way while others don't, it is hype or overstated.
 
As far as ABX testing, I see several possible issues depending on the setup and environment.  I will not go into it here (PM me if you really are interested), but I have little faith in human ability to recall subtle sounds after any appreciable passing of time other than pitch and tone.  I do have to say I have a more enjoyable experience when I am using my better gear for whatever the reason may be.
 
I have a 240GB HD so I can carry my music collection with me, and the iPod is modded for better sound (I A/Bed the stock vs. the modded as well as an "iMod").  These days you can get a 160GB iPod and if you want the best source, use one of the new devices such as the iStreamer for the best sound.
 
Here is another place some people can hang out if they choose and post things like the last comment in this post 

 

[james444]

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It also seems that many times on here, instead of accepting that people hear things differently people act like someone's opinion is wrong (not saying anyone in particular).  So, if someone feels a certain way while others don't, it is hype or overstated.

 
Joe, my post wasn't meant that way and I don't think you know me as an intolerant person. But you and others were criticising the OP for using lame -V0 files for his evaluation, which are proven to be indistinguishable from lossless in ABX testing by a vast majority of people. I'm not claiming that there are no better sounding sources than the Clip+ and I don't doubt that your setup gives you more listening pleasure. Just saying that the OP used the same Clip+ (an excellent sounding DAP) and the same audio files (with excellent quality compression) for his A/B comparisons and I fail to see the flaw in that.

 
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I know you love them, but at that price, I can easily get 1964Qs Plus I don't want to support the shady business tactics Sony is renowned for (the latest PS3 complaints are just one in a long list..)

Ok, your choice, but I'd really be interested in your opinion if you have the chance to hear them sometime.

 

[buz]

Especially when said setup will reflect the environment the IEM will be used in in the future... No point in draging a desktop amp to the store to test what will mainly be a mobile setup, right?

 

 

[average_joe]

 
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Last comment from me on this:
 
The sound of music starts with the source. If we are talking about a hobby that sucks up so much of our money striving for incremental improvements in our gear that costs alot of money why not invest in a stinking cheap - ass external hard drive and rip our music lossless? Maybe it's because I'm in the music business for 30 years but I find 128/256 UNLISTENABLE.
 
It just don't make no kinda sense.

I have some FLAC files that are pretty unlistenable, depending on the headphones used.  But I can see if you become accustomed to using high resolution equipment throughout with well mastered lossless recordings you become accustom that which will change your perception, possibly improve your listening skills, and set the bar higher.  
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Joe, my post wasn't meant that way and I don't think you know me as an intolerant person. But you and others were criticising the OP for using lame -V0 files for his evaluation, which are proven to be indistinguishable from lossless in ABX testing by a vast majority of people. I'm not claiming that there are no better sounding sources than the Clip+ and I don't doubt that your setup gives you more listening pleasure. Just saying that the OP used the same Clip+ (an excellent sounding DAP) and the same audio files (with excellent quality compression) for his A/B comparisons and I fail to see the flaw in that.

 

Ok, your choice, but I'd really be interested in your opinion if you have the chance to hear them sometime.

 

And I didn't say it was you, and I also stated I can't tell the difference between FLAC and 192K with many tracks, but then again with some I can depending on many other factors, so I choose to keep mostly FLAC just in case!  And I trust my ears more than some ABX test where I don't know any of the conditions for the simple reason I stated above.  And I am not saying the Clip+ doesn't sound good, but there are better sources such as the iPhone and from what trusted friends have told me, the Sony X and J3, not to mention amped modded iPods, etc.  My point is the Clip+ is a somewhat limiting factor, as would be the bit rate in some instances.  And that limiting factor might not be noticeable with lower end equipment, but as you increase the resolution capability of the headphone, the source matters more.  For me I can hear the flaws in the Clip+ more readily with my EM3 Pro than I can with say the Copper even though the Copper is much harder to drive than the EM3 Pro.  Even though the Copper gains much more from an amp than the EM3 Pro, no matter what amp I use, the Copper will more than likely never have the resolution of the EM3 Pro, even when I use it with a Clip+.
 
The differences won't magically make the JH16 demo unit sound as spacious as the D2000, that is more the fault of the fit IMO, but I just wanted to agree that I think all the little things add up to an overall better sound.  And while we are chatting, when are you getting customs?

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Especially when said setup will reflect the environment the IEM will be used in in the future... No point in draging a desktop amp to the store to test what will mainly be a mobile setup, right?

 

Not sure if this is directed toward me.  My question to you about your home setup was just to see if you noticed a difference with your IEMs when driven from that source, and how large of a difference you interpreted it to be.  A difference that may be large to me may be small or non-existent to you and vice versa!

 

[james444]

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As far as ABX testing, I see several possible issues depending on the setup and environment.  I will not go into it here (PM me if you really are interested), but I have little faith in human ability to recall subtle sounds after any appreciable passing of time other than pitch and tone.

 
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And I trust my ears more than some ABX test where I don't know any of the conditions for the simple reason I stated above.

Just one more thing before I quit bothering you: from your comments it seems like you've never tried the foobar2000 ABX comparator. It lets you switch source files during listening, so audio memory doesn't really play a role in that. Just try it sometime, it's an easy and interesting experiment.

 

[goodvibes]

I've done blind wav vs FLAC but on better kit than PC as player and a third party switching. No probs. Just let each play for bit and try to relate to the music instead of trying to hear the differences. Yes the differences are smaller on a clip but that also lends to a perception of whether a $1k custom is worthwhile for the source. Point wasn't that 256 vbr is bad as it can be satisfying but even though it and a clip being able to sound good, it may be underwhelming for this type of purchase. I use a fuze more often than not for portability but I know it's limitations and usually pick a firmware based on the phones most in use. None are spot on, including rockbox. My Ipod touches are much closer to right. If I were looking at an expensive new custom for portable use, I'd use my touch 3 with an amp but for me that's bulky for my definition of portable and customs in general are more work to get in and out when just shopping etc. Very personal, I know. Just one perspective and there is no right and wrong here, including using an expensive custom with a less than stellar source if that's what brings it home for you.
 
I do think Foobar is a VG player via asio, kernel or wasapi and a proper interface/dac arrangement but a top renderer/dac via local storage or good hardwired ethernet is still preferred. Foobars handling of full bit files leaves something to be desired but it sounds pretty good. Most with any pro type experience were using asio, ripping in mixing programs, etc when itunes/ tos were being touted as (bit perfect) sonically perfect. LOL. I've moved to a renderer but I used to use Wavelab as player though a TC Konnekt 8 / linear supply interface and coax out for listening to HiDef when needed. Was mostly still an analog guy. Did my rips in wavelab before I ever heard of DBpoweramp because they just sounded better than doing so in Itunes/MM. No one needed to tell me. Otherwise I used a CDP for listening CDs until recently.
 
Point is that we were getting the same 'can't hear a difference' stuff then. Generally a self fulfilling prophesy related to assumptions regarding the audio chain, ripping and rendering. My personal opinion and probably for another discussion but it's been brought up here. There's room for more views on this than 'prove it' which is impossible to do on a message board. Regardless of your feelings about file types and players, I think just to be on the safe side, a comparison of top kit should be done so that one tries very hard for that bit of kit to be weakest in the chain whether you personally feel it important or not. It's just prudent.

 

[midoo1990]

To the OP.clip+ is bad with my jh13.small soundstage,significant loss of soundstage and some details and relaxed mids. i honestly dont know the enormous praising that the clip gets on headfi.its fantastic for portability but weak when driving my jh13 or even the hard to drive mc5(which is also terrible). the same goes with the fuze(from experiance).
as far as soundstage goes,i had d5000 and ofcourse the jh13 cant mimic its soundstage capabilities especially in height and the whole feel of the orchestra for example. with the jh13 i can feel the beautiful sound of the singer,with full size cans i feel the whole body.period.
But when it comes to imaging and depth,the jh13 is better than the full size headphones i had.significantly....
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Hi Buz, I had a similar experience with the JH16 demo, disappointed listening with a amp and 320kps tracks (compared directly to another set of customs).
You can see my comparison here.
 
People may exaggerate the differences between demo and universal, but fit is important and there is likely some difference (although I would be wary of anyone claiming a night-and-day difference). However, a counterpoint to that is that demo may actually sound a little better in some ways because any sibilance which has been reported by some professional reviewers is muted by the foam tips.

i had a night and day difference in sound quality when the arm of my jh13 was shortened 0.5mm and the angle was changed, so i can imagine a world difference  between universal and actual custom.