[singleended5863]

Was thinking exactly the same thing today

How big is your AP200’s memory size? I ordered the 128G. I do not have any problems with my AP200 either. Could that be the causes?

 

[CactusPete23]

Awesome link!

Yep, the filters are part of Sabre's work!

@Dobrescu George and @DjBobby , This is a lot of good test work from our Russian friend.

Any chance that one of you can "translate" what this means to a simple person like myself? I don't fully understand all the graphs; And am not sure that I have Golden ears "or short term sound memory" to tell the difference between the couple of digital filters I tried.

Would some of these be more "warm" than others. Or more "cold". Or More "detailed" ? Can you can give a shot at ranking them in these (or other areas) either by listening tests, or by looking at the graphs?

Any chance that the AP200 might react differently than the FIIO X7 II being tested in the graphs? (Due to different Output Amps and other "stuff" ?)

I will continue to try out different filters to see what my "less than golden: ears can detect...

Thanks!

 

[sly_in_the_sky]

Hello,

Finally received mine... Nice looking player with good sound paired with my Earsonics Es5...

Just a little question: when the player screen is shut down while playing, is there a way to make the skip buttons on the side work as it is on the ap60? Or do we have to switch on the screen everytime we want to skip to the next song?

Thank you very much.

 

[Dobrescu George]

Hello,

Finally received mine... Nice looking player with good sound paired with my Earsonics Es5...

Just a little question: when the player screen is shut down while playing, is there a way to make the skip buttons on the side work as it is on the ap60? Or do we have to switch on the screen everytime we want to skip to the next song?

Thank you very much.

They have to post that via an upgrade.

 

[sly_in_the_sky]

Thank you for your fast answer.

 

[Dobrescu George]

@Dobrescu George and @DjBobby , This is a lot of good test work from our Russian friend.

Any chance that one of you can "translate" what this means to a simple person like myself? I don't fully understand all the graphs; And am not sure that I have Golden ears "or short term sound memory" to tell the difference between the couple of digital filters I tried.

Would some of these be more "warm" than others. Or more "cold". Or More "detailed" ? Can you can give a shot at ranking them in these (or other areas) either by listening tests, or by looking at the graphs?

Any chance that the AP200 might react differently than the FIIO X7 II being tested in the graphs? (Due to different Output Amps and other "stuff" ?)

I will continue to try out different filters to see what my "less than golden: ears can detect...

Thanks!

My bsic rule is:

If you can't hear, don't stress it out.

The more processing a filter does, the smoother and subjectively better it sounds. Relaxing.

I am using brick walls on everything and this is the most honest filter, with zero reconstruction additions. Slow Roll-Off has most cosmetic additions and will sound better for some, but has some pre and post ringing in the signal. Don't stress about it, if you don't hear it.

 

[HungryPanda]

I like a slow roll off with classic rock, AC/DC and the like. For electronic and pop it has to be fast

 

[CactusPete23]

My bsic rule is:

If you can't hear, don't stress it out.

The more processing a filter does, the smoother and subjectively better it sounds. Relaxing.

I am using brick walls on everything and this is the most honest filter, with zero reconstruction additions. Slow Roll-Off has most cosmetic additions and will sound better for some, but has some pre and post ringing in the signal. Don't stress about it, if you don't hear it.

Thanks so much !

 

[gugman]

How big is your AP200’s memory size? I ordered the 128G. I do not have any problems with my AP200 either. Could that be the causes?

Me neither , though mine is 32

 

[Dobrescu George]

I like a slow roll off with classic rock, AC/DC and the like. For electronic and pop it has to be fast

I actually prefer that quick filter with everything!

I can see why slower roll-off woulkd work well with some classic rock, especially those that are harsher!

 

[DjBobby]

@Dobrescu George and @DjBobby , This is a lot of good test work from our Russian friend.

Any chance that one of you can "translate" what this means to a simple person like myself? I don't fully understand all the graphs; And am not sure that I have Golden ears "or short term sound memory" to tell the difference between the couple of digital filters I tried.

Would some of these be more "warm" than others. Or more "cold". Or More "detailed" ? Can you can give a shot at ranking them in these (or other areas) either by listening tests, or by looking at the graphs?

Any chance that the AP200 might react differently than the FIIO X7 II being tested in the graphs? (Due to different Output Amps and other "stuff" ?)

I will continue to try out different filters to see what my "less than golden: ears can detect...

Thanks!

Yes, indeed, our Russian friend has done a great job. I am following for a while his website and had learn a lot from it.

There are plenty of scientific explanations on the web about different reconstruction filters, some of the most interesting are:
Ayre White Papers: https://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf
Auralic Papers: http://www.auralic.com/download/flexible_filter_mode.pdf
and Stereophile: https://www.stereophile.com/content/ringing-false-digital-audios-ubiquitous-filter-page-2

There are plenty of parameters which have to be considered, but to put it in most simple way, you want the DAC impulse to look as close as possible to this one:
http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/muse-audio-4x-tda1543-nos-dsc.php
Scroll down to Impulse Response and Impulse Response Envelope.
Any deviation from this form will introduce different forms of timing and transient errors or smear.

Now this is my personal view of different AP200 filters, put into most simple explanation way:
Linear phase fast roll-off: this is a standard, most used filter found in 99% of devices. According to Rob Watts of Chord Electronics, the closest to the original signal. It has the best imaging properties, instrument placement, and is preferred to be used with a loudspeakers. Personally due to pre-ringing, I find it fatiguing when used with headphones. It can sound harsh with some material.
Linear phase slows roll-off: much reduced pre- and post-ringing, less time smear, smooth, relaxing, more analogue due to the treble roll-off. Some lack of air and transparency, but if you are of certain age like me, you don't hear the treble roll off anyway. It sounds warmer and more forgiving. My most preferred filter.
Minimum phase fast roll-off: No pre-ringing, very small post-ringing, sounds very nice with the headphones, less so with the loudspeakers. Works especially well for the percussion. It has less digital edge to it. My personal 2nd choice, for some music even preferred over the Linear phase slow roll-off.
Minimum phase slow roll-off: Don't understand this one, pre-ringing and post-ringing and phase shift - nothing good to expect.
Apodizing fast roll-off: Standard Apple filter used in all their products, including iPhones, iPads, iPods etc. Long post-ringing, good transients, but sounds somewhat bright. If you like Apple's house sound, this is your choice. I am not a fan of it. It is transparent but lacks the body and the imaging is imprecise.
Hybrid fast roll-off: Not a meat, not a fish, not a vegetarian. Something between. Kind of compromise, but with no clear direction. Less pre-ringing but it's still there, and longer post-ringing. Nothing for me.
Brick wall: Measures excellent, sounds strange and fatiguing. If you want symetrical filter then better opt for the Linear phase fast roll-off.

This is my very personal opinion and I am very well aware that your taste might be completely different. Therefore there are no RIGHT filters, only preferred ones because every filter alters the sound.

Opamps can not influence dac impulse response, they can only color the sound. Since AP200 is applying one of the most modern dac chips available, I guess that the bottleneck is the weak amp section of the AP200. Or Hidizs engineers have tried to tame too much the analytical character of Sabre dac chip with it's famous glare and have overdone it. Because it sounds too smooth now. Like a good night smooth.

I hope this helps a bit.

 

[CactusPete23]

Yes, indeed, our Russian friend has done a great job. I am following for a while his website and had learn a lot from it.

Bobby, Thanks for the great explaination ! Gives me a good starting point !

Ha Ha, Love this hobby! Can already see different preferences among members !

 

[mikejazz]

Ok--got my unit. I'm a total newbie. I went online to try to download Spotify onto the AP200. Went to Spotify--that sent me to the Google store.Well, first I went through the menu to download to offline device---I have Premium. It recognized my phone and previous phones but not the AP200 .Ok--so I decided to try Tidal. Never used it before. Tidal sent me to the Google store to download the app. Same story. Drop down menu to specify which device to download to.My phone and previous phones but no AP200. Any ideas? Oh--and this is all while on the AP200---can't figure it out---I'm on the device but it's not recognized.

 

[eusti]

Ooops... Didn't make sense, sorry!

 

[Dobrescu George]

Yes, indeed, our Russian friend has done a great job. I am following for a while his website and had learn a lot from it.

There are plenty of scientific explanations on the web about different reconstruction filters, some of the most interesting are:
Ayre White Papers: https://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf
Auralic Papers: http://www.auralic.com/download/flexible_filter_mode.pdf
and Sterophile: https://www.stereophile.com/content/ringing-false-digital-audios-ubiquitous-filter-page-2

There are plenty of parameters which have to be considered, but to put it in most simple way, you want the DAC impulse to look as close as possible to this one:
http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/muse-audio-4x-tda1543-nos-dsc.php
Scroll down to Impulse Response and Impulse Response Envelope.
Any deviation from this form will introduce different forms of timing and transient errors or smear.

Now this is my personal view of different AP200 filters, put into most simple explanation way:
Linear phase fast roll-off: this is a standard, most used filter found in 99% of devices. According to Rob Watts of Chord Electronics, the closest to the original signal. It has the best imaging properties, instrument placement, and is preferred to be used with a loudspeakers. Personally due to pre-ringing, I find it fatiguing when used with headphones. It can sound harsh with some material.
Linear phase slows roll-off: much reduced pre- and post-ringing, less time smear, smooth, relaxing, more analogue due to the treble roll-off. Some lack of air and transparency, but if you are of certain age like me, you don't hear the treble roll off anyway. It sounds warmer and more forgiving. My most preferred filter.
Minimum phase fast roll-off: No pre-ringing, very small post-ringing, sounds very nice with the headphones, less so with the loudspeakers. Works especially well for the percussion. It has less digital edge to it. My personal 2nd choice, for some music even preferred over the Linear phase slow roll-off.
Minimum phase slow roll-off: Don't understand this one, pre-ringing and post-ringing and phase shift - nothing good to expect.
Apodizing fast roll-off: Standard Apple filter used in all their products, including iPhones, iPads, iPods etc. Long post-ringing, good transients, but sounds somewhat bright. If you like Apple's house sound, this is your choice. I am not a fan of it. It is transparent but lacks the body and the imaging is imprecise.
Hybrid fast roll-off: Not a meat, not a fish, not a vegetarian. Something between. Kind of compromise, but with no clear direction. Less pre-ringing but it's still there, and longer post-ringing. Nothing for me.
Brick wall: Measures excellent, sounds strange and fatiguing. If you want symetrical filter then better opt for the Linear phase fast roll-off.

This is my very personal opinion and I am very well aware that your taste might be completely different. Therefore there are not RIGHT filters, only preferred ones because every filter alters the sound.

Opamps can not influence dac impulse response, it can only color the sound. Since AP200 is applying one of the most modern dac chips available, I guess that the bottleneck is the weak amp section of the AP200. Or Hidizs engineers have tried to tame too much the analytical character of Sabre dac chip with it's famous glare and have overdone it. Because it sounds too smooth now. Like a good night smooth.

I hope this helps a bit.

Thank you for the nice write-up!