[wondroushippo]

   
Thanks for the reply.
 
I have no intentions of using it with a mobile.
Do you have any idea how "hot" the Black is on a PC? It's running on lower voltage than the older DF - 1.2V vs 1.8V (and a lot less than the Red at 2.1V) - so one could expect the Black would be "less hot" than the older DF, but the voltage per se is far from being the only relevant fact here...
 
Anyway the DF 1.2 seems to be getting harder to find on online shops (well excluding ebay's and the likes) and usually more expensive than the Black, so soon the Black might be my only viable option... So I'm starting to think that's probably better to just go with that and stop over thinking it

 
Yeah, my guess is that the Black isn't a problem on the PC so much because of the lower 1.2V output, and maybe even the analog volume control. If you don't need the extra voltage, go Black! And honestly, the Red is only really problematic with IEMs on PC, and hard-to-drive headphones on mobile.
 

  My post was actually an argumentation against this point, but fine. You say "is impossible", but UAPP can do it. Welcome to the Wild West. I repeat: I do not buy it.

Right, UAPP can do it because it's a self-contained app where the developer wrote their own driver for it. But, and I speak from experience talking to developers who make stuff for Android all the time – the platform is a nightmare to develop for because there's so many hardware variations out there. And manufacturers are often deeply customizing Android and the way it works to their own ends. Like, WIndows in comparison is easier to develop for because there's more standardization across the board, even with wildly differing hardware setups. When even Nexus devices behave weirdly with USB DACs, you know things are weird on Android. Should AudioQuest have perhaps promoted UAPP as an option for folks? Yes. Is it their fault that Android is software and hardware compatibility disaster? No.
 

   
Cables are always a delicate subject. But why would you take his reviews with a heaping bowl of salt because of that single review. He doesn't gain anything in promoting that and why would he put his reputation at stake promoting something that is not good at all. As far as I know he hasn't been sugarcoating anything. Of those dacs (that I own) that he describes in reviews I would say he is point on. I'd rather trust one that has tried hundreds of dacs to one that has tried three when wanting an opinion. And on a final note - yes that cable is really good, but then it's also mighty expensive (it would be good even if it was cheap).

I keep trying to find a good way to put this. 
- Curious is a site advertiser, Darko is the face of the site. Literally. Even if a firewall exists (and the about page of DAR gives no real indication beyond 'trust me'), you know who's advertising on your site because they're there. And these aren't random Google ads on the site.
- The very idea of a $340 USB cable being worth the money is a claim that should be regarded with high skepticism to begin with.
- To throw out measurements and blind testing in favor of "Trust me" is a cause for concern, but sure, cable testing and measurement is a dark art to begin with. It's just a concern when this statement is not far below the placement of the ad for Curious on the site.
- All of this is in the context of access being very important to audio sites in particular. It's one thing for me to lose access to a mobile game publisher or developer – it's another to lose access to companies that will send you expensive gear that your readership wants to know about. And Darko is pretty willing to play ball, clearly – he was one of the first to get the new DragonFly models, and look who advertises on his site...
 
Am I accusing him of malicious impropriety, of selling out straight to the highest bidder? Nah, I know not every fishy-looking situation is foul business, but the possibility of him willing to say nice things about people who pay him is too high. I say this out of first-hand experience as a video game journalist. You obviously trust him, that's fair, keep trusting him! And it seems like he's building an audience that is meant to trust his informed expertise. I'm saying that based on what I know and there's legitimate reasons to regard his opinions with a huge heaping bowl of salt.
 
Of course, Darko's probably rolling in cash compared to me, so I may just be an idiot. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

[brent75]

I keep trying to find a good way to put this.  - Curious is a site advertiser, Darko is the face of the site. Literally. Even if a firewall exists (and the about page of DAR gives no real indication beyond 'trust me'), you know who's advertising on your site because they're there. And these aren't random Google ads on the site.
- The very idea of a $340 USB cable being worth the money is a claim that should be regarded with high skepticism to begin with.
- To throw out measurements and blind testing in favor of "Trust me" is a cause for concern, but sure, cable testing and measurement is a dark art to begin with. It's just a concern when this statement is not far below the placement of the ad for Curious on the site.
- All of this is in the context of access being very important to audio sites in particular. It's one thing for me to lose access to a mobile game publisher or developer – it's another to lose access to companies that will send you expensive gear that your readership wants to know about. And Darko is pretty willing to play ball, clearly – he was one of the first to get the new DragonFly models, and look who advertises on his site...
 
Am I accusing him of malicious impropriety, of selling out straight to the highest bidder? Nah, I know not every fishy-looking situation is foul business, but the possibility of him willing to say nice things about people who pay him is too high. I say this out of first-hand experience as a video game journalist. You obviously trust him, that's fair, keep trusting him! And it seems like he's building an audience that is meant to trust his informed expertise. I'm saying that based on what I know and there's legitimate reasons to regard his opinions with a huge heaping bowl of salt.
 
Of course, Darko's probably rolling in cash compared to me, so I may just be an idiot. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 
I completely understand and agree with your POV. But I will say Darko does not strike me as somebody who refuses to bite the hand that feeds him. I feel that he's never been shy about pointing out what he feels are shortcomings/shortsightedness with Mojo in his multiple articles about it. And clearly they work together -- he just did a giveaway on behalf of Mojo, and I've seen their advertising on his site.

 

[defbear]

Someone responding to a Head-fi review said "So and so likes everything". The concern was if advertising revenue was being traded for favorable reviews. In my opinion nothing like that is going on here. There is so much good equipment out there that there is no reason to pick a poor piece of equipment and give it a bad review. That sounds simplistic but it's also why you usually do not see bad reviews in the magazines. Time is short and space is tight.

 

[jmsaxon69]

DragonFly Red was stunning some people at the AmpsandSound Table at Canlanta 2016, running into the Kenzie tube headphone amp. It was sounding amazingly good!

 

[wondroushippo]

   
I completely understand and agree with your POV. But I will say Darko does not strike me as somebody who refuses to bite the hand that feeds him. I feel that he's never been shy about pointing out what he feels are shortcomings/shortsightedness with Mojo in his multiple articles about it. And clearly they work together -- he just did a giveaway on behalf of Mojo, and I've seen their advertising on his site.

 
Fair enough, think we just have different perspectives on this!

Someone responding to a Head-fi review said "So and so likes everything". The concern was if advertising revenue was being traded for favorable reviews. In my opinion nothing like that is going on here. There is so much good equipment out there that there is no reason to pick a poor piece of equipment and give it a bad review. That sounds simplistic but it's also why you usually do not see bad reviews in the magazines. Time is short and space is tight.

I 10000% understand this, as someone who writes about mobile games and someone who has angered sponsors, hah. 
 
--
 
BTW, has anyone figured out what the power output and output impedance on this thing is? I know the previous dragonfly models were sub-1 ohm (though there was confusion regarding that, people think they were 12 ohms but Stereophile, I believe, measured at sub-1), and IEM performance doesn't seem warped in any way, where I can tell. And I know the DF 1.0 was 125 mW at 32 ohms, and that seems like the case still – the Q701 feels a bit underjuiced.
 
Still, as a mobile-friendly tool for IEMs and anything that doesn't needs a bit extra juice but not too much (like the Nighthawk)...I really like the Red, super-glad I bought it, but think it's not quite perfect yet.

 

[GerMan]

   
Post 138
"I'm quite disappointed. Lots of hype over months, the sound was promised to improve enormously over 1.2. I used to hear with dragonfly 1.2 and AQ jitter bug on PC and could not wait for the new Red to appear. Well the difference is, the Red has more power, is louder, at he same time a bit darker, more veiled. Everything seems to be out of balance, no details, no separation of instruments. The new dragonflies were invented to work with mobile phones imho, that's the hole thing. Users with pc were promised a sound improvement over 1.2 at the same time which I cannot confirm at all and is only a marketing statement. I'm using AKG K-702 headphones, quite a precise and resolving machine. Hearing flac files with JRiver on PC with WASAPI, all settings optimized. Music is no longer flowing somehow. Heard the ifi micro idsd which is a LARGE step forward. The red is a step back to me."
 
---
One reviewer on Amazon states that the Red is not as warm as 1.2. And you describe the Red as veiled, dark, no details, no separation. Both of you have totally different views on it but you agree upon that the Red is bad.
 
And what's up with all the reviewers stating that something has louder volume - that's not how you compare dac's/amps to one another. It's crucial to match levels!
 
Also the AKG K-702 are far from what I would call neutral, they are very bright and to shine they have to use a very powerful amp (1W+) - usb-powered not the best solution. And this is what you have based your opionion on - doesn't make that much sense.

 
All you say is that everyone has different hearing impressions as everyone has got different hearing surroundings and different headphones.
 
First: I dont’t want to convince anyone, why should I?
 
Second: I don’t want to say anything bad about Audioquest. Quite the contrary: I love my 1.2 and Jitterbug, only was really disappointed as Red was promised to be an enormous step forward which it isn’t with pc using. It is sounding somehow wrong to me (and obviously some others), as if an equalizer was activated, no longer linear.
 
AKG702 is not “far from being neutral”. This statement is nearly funny. In the internet you will find at least 8 to 10 reviews of studio and music professional magazines for music production where 702 is described as one of the most neutral headphones you can buy. As it is very precise and revealing, some people with not that revealing headphones describe it as “bright” sounding which it isn’t. You would be astonished to  h e a r  the 702 with Dragonfly 1.2. It delivers all the 702 needs when using with pc: dynamics, punch and power, it is totally controlling the 702.
 
Seems to me you  r e a d too much and  t h i n k  too much but you havn’t  h e a r d  702 with 1.2. I have.
 
What I have based on my opinion was not working with the “wrong” headphone but a direct comparison of 1.2 and Red using a very neutral headphone. Neither 1.2 nor Red is sounding bright with the 702. I did not say that.  
 
First reviews of the Black and Red are appearing over here in Germany. You find writers are trying to be polite (as Darko does), avoiding to confirm that they were sounding very good (“reasonable DAC”).
http://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/1764-audioquest-dragonfly-black-und-red?start=2
 
This will be my last post to this topic, as I already said, I don’t want to convince anybody. I only made my statement as some asked for 1.2 owners who compared to Red directly. What is more, it always seems to annoy fans of a hifi gadget to see others not loving their baby   

 

[defbear]

I bought the DFR to use with my iPhone and IE800 iems. I added a Jitterbug which actually sounds better. This is a great sounding combo with the Onkyo app. So for giggles I plugged the DFR with and without the Jitterbug into my MacBook Pro. Into the DFR went my HD800 set with Norne Draug 2 cable and all. Amarra player. Well, the DFR drives the hd800 to excessive volume with bass and everything. A little screechy Dog! There is some digital sizzle around the edges of the treble. If I delete the Jitterbug the sound darkens down a bit. So the DFR will do with the hd800 in a pinch but not my best pairing. Say! My ZMF Omni set loves the DFR.

 

[Deni5]

  ..
 
AKG702 is not “far from being neutral”. This statement is nearly funny. In the internet you will find at least 8 to 10 reviews of studio and music professional magazines for music production where 702 is described as one of the most neutral headphones you can buy. As it is very precise and revealing, some people with not that revealing headphones describe it as “bright” sounding which it isn’t. You would be astonished to  h e a r  the 702 with Dragonfly 1.2. It delivers all the 702 needs when using with pc: dynamics, punch and power, it is totally controlling the 702.
 
Seems to me you  r e a d too much and  t h i n k  too much but you havn’t  h e a r d  702 with 1.2. I have.
 
What I have based on my opinion was not working with the “wrong” headphone but a direct comparison of 1.2 and Red using a very neutral headphone. Neither 1.2 nor Red is sounding bright with the 702. I did not say that.  
 
First reviews of the Black and Red are appearing over here in Germany. You find writers are trying to be polite (as Darko does), avoiding to confirm that they were sounding very good (“reasonable DAC”).
http://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/1764-audioquest-dragonfly-black-und-red?start=2
 
This will be my last post to this topic, as I already said, I don’t want to convince anybody. I only made my statement as some asked for 1.2 owners who compared to Red directly. What is more, it always seems to annoy fans of a hifi gadget to see others not loving their baby   

 
I find it lacking some bass (even the K7XX which should have more bass) so that is why I wouldn't call it 'very neutral'. Anyway that term is vague and everyone has an opinion on what's neutral. For me a hp that has a good balance of bass, mids and treble is neutral (not in extremes like fatiguing treble or bass headache) - should cope with any music genre you throw at it (music like EDM, hip hop, reggae) not just the usual audiophile stuff.

 

[joeexp]

 
Also the AKG K-702 are far from what I would call neutral, they are very bright and to shine they have to use a very powerful amp (1W+) - usb-powered not the best solution. And this is what you have based your opionion on - doesn't make that much sense.

 
I can only confirm that the K702s are quite resolving - but far from being neutral!
 
I have owned them for over two years and know what they sound like. The are actually a little bass-shy and a bit ear-piercing. YMMV.
The are better phones out there in that price-range

 

[romainsecco]

  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.extreamsd.usbaudioplayerpro&hl=en

Great thanks, so I assume this won't be necessary on my laptop (Macbook)?

 

[SpiderNhan]

Great thanks, so I assume this won't be necessary on my laptop (Macbook)?

Correct.

 

[brent75]

Correct - Mac is plug and play. You just have to go to System Preferences --> Audio the first time and select Dragonfly for output,

 

[canali]

so android smartphone streamers...I confirmed with UAPP tech that their app works with Tidal, but not with Spotify or Apple.
steve of audioquest says in a further email to me that it's an issue they're trying to find a rational solution for.
 
i understand there are licensing issues, but I can't understand why spotify wouldn't want to get into the game and possibly pull in more listeners if UAPP was compatible.
i mean it's a way to offer 'better sound' without having to up their bitrate transfers...or am i missing something?

 

[cribeiro]

  steve of audioquest says in a further email to me that it's an issue they're trying to find a rational solution for.

I will follow this with highest interest. In the meantime, I am going to test a Fiio A1 as a compromise solution. I hope it pairs well with my Hifiman RE-400a. I tried a Meier Audio Porta Corda MKII connected to my HTC One M8 headphone output and the sound improved considerably, specially the bass - from a blurred noise to tuneful notes, immediately noticeable and not possible to achieve by just equalizing.
Still, my old Iaudio X5L delivers better sound without amplifier. My guess is that the Hifiman have strong impedance swings in the bass frequencies, causing the problems in bass. The rest of the spectrum also suffers, even though the phone can apparently deliver a lot of power.
Now, if I come near the sound of the Iaudio X5L just by using the Fiio A1, I probably will not look into the Dragonfly anymore...

 

[SpiderNhan]

so android smartphone streamers...I confirmed with UAPP tech that their app works with Tidal, but either Spotify nor Apple.
steve of audioquest says in a further email to me that it's an issue they're trying to find a rational solution for.

i understand there are licensing issues, but I can't understand why spotify wouldn't want to get into the game and possibly pull in more listeners if UAPP was compatible.
i mean it's a way to offer 'better sound' without having to up their bitrate transfers...or am i missing something?

My guess is the majority of smartphone and tablet users would never connect an external DAC to their devices. Just look at how few of them spend money on decent headphones. In New York City, where I live, 90% of the headphones I see when riding the subway or wandering the streets are either Apple earbuds/pods, Beats, Skullcandy, lower end Sonys, or Bose. The remaining 10% are the random earbuds/IEMS I can't identify and the occasional Sennheiser, B&W, B&O, MDR-V6/7506, and Audio-Technica. Recently I've been starting to spot V-MODA and Master & Dynamics. For B&W, B&O and M&D being sold in the Apple store helps.

How many external DACs have I have seen in my almost 4 years of living here?

Zero.

I saw a guy using a FiiO E6 with his iPhone once, but other than him I'm the only person I know who has strapped a DAC to his phone to go stomping around this city of 8-10 million.

It might not seem like it on Head-Fi, but audiophiles like us are a tiny community. There are probably more cat sitters than there are external DAC strappers in the world.

So to answer your question, Spotify doesn't need us.