[Chopin75]

The DAC will always reads Native DSD because it does receive true Native DSD at the Input port.

The DAC will only display DOP when the signal being input at the port is DOP

DOP meant that the signals is processed by your source (upper stream), and Native DSD means that the Native DSD travel through USB cables and will be processed by your USB input port.

I2S will have to be DOP in Multibit, there is no such thing as single bit I2S.

It appears based on the example in the link, that DAC reads both DSD as well as DoP meaning that the 2 different signals can travel via I2Sto the DAC, at least according to that PS audio DAC setup. It has nothing to do with USB as it was not used, and I am not aware that Native can travel via USB at all though I could be wrong.

 

[Whitigir]

It appears based on the example in the link, that DAC reads both DSD as well as DoP meaning that the 2 different signals can travel via I2Sto the DAC, at least according to that PS audio DAC setup. It has nothing to do with USB as it was not used, and I am not aware that Native can travel via USB at all though I could be wrong.

There are more than 1 way to breakdown the I2S signals. The packages of style A, the DAC displays DSD, and the packages of style B and the DAC reads DOP. Both are I2S of multi bits of the same DSD, but only read differently by the DAC at the I2S input port.

More precisely, the lks ddc is using amanero384, and I think this amanero384 can receive DOP of DSD (DOP128). So

1/ the DAC display DOP128 because the source (PC), before Amanero, already broken down the DSD of 1 bit into DOP of 2-4bits. The Amanero is simply capable of bypassing these packages onto the I2S at the end, so the Amanero display that it receive DOP and the DAC displays (DOP128) at it I2S input port.

2/ the DAC display DSD128 because the Amanero is receiving DSD 1 bit stream of DSD128 from the source (PC), so the Amanero have to decode and convert this Native DSD into DOP multi-bit. When the Amanero process something, it display this into the DAC display and so it display DSD128

I have not tried DOP128 into Amanero384 because I have no interests. I only want DSD512 and higher. I need to find a way to do it as lks004 is fully capable of dsd1024

 

[Chopin75]

Here stated DoP is required to travel through USB, AES/SPDIF:


https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/support/what-is-dop-dsd-over-pcm/

I am not trying to be argumentative, but why then do these companies keep stating one can do native DSD over I2S, below is just one eg, Singxer and Matrix both state same thing.

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/...-and-lvds-i2s-converter?variant=1238811639823

 

[Chopin75]

There are more than 1 way to breakdown the I2S signals. The packages of style A, the DAC displays DSD, and the packages of style B and the DAC reads DOP. Both are I2S of multi bits of the same DSD, but only read differently by the DAC at the I2S input port.

More precisely, the lks ddc is using amanero384, and I think this amanero384 can receive DOP of DSD (DOP128). So

1/ the DAC display DOP128 because the source (PC), before Amanero, already broken down the DSD of 1 bit into DOP of 2-4bits. The Amanero is simply capable of bypassing these packages onto the I2S at the end, so the Amanero display that it receive DOP and the DAC displays (DOP128) at it I2S input port.

2/ the DAC display DSD128 because the Amanero is receiving DSD 1 bit stream of DSD128 from the source (PC), so the Amanero have to decode and convert this Native DSD into DOP multi-bit. When the Amanero process something, it display this into the DAC display and so it display DSD128

I have not tried DOP128 into Amanero384 because I have no interests. I only want DSD512 and higher. I need to find a way to do it as lks004 is fully capable of dsd1024

Ok , So from eg 2 this means the PC is sending native DSD directly via I2S ? But u said it cannot be via I2S which does not deal with native DSD. (Or maybe u mean the PC cannot send pure native DSD via I2S). I read somewhere apparently only SACD can do I2S direct out.
Though why would Amanero convert Native DSD to DoP again?
I am playing DSD 256 now which is already really nice, not sure if I want to upsampled or DSD 512. I have to say DSD 256 is quite a bit better than DSD 128, warmer, more Analogue, wider/deeper sound stage, it seems to be even more obvious than from 24/96 to 24/192 to DXD. U think so too ?

 

[Whitigir]

Here stated DoP is required to travel through USB, AES/SPDIF:


https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/support/what-is-dop-dsd-over-pcm/

I am not trying to be argumentative, but why then do these companies keep stating one can do native DSD over I2S, below is just one eg, Singxer and Matrix both state same thing.

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/...-and-lvds-i2s-converter?variant=1238811639823

USB is universal, it can carry whatever, and that means 1 bit of data or multi bit. Spdif and i2s are multi bit only and not universal, therefore they have to have DOP in order to travel through them.

Look at how the Amanero display this . See the red circle ? DSD-On. This means , if the receiving signals are 1 bit, Amanero realizes it is getting DSD, so it display DSD-on by this output, and according to the rate, the DSDX is going to be displayed. However, this signals then get converted to DOP in order to travel into the DAC (all Multi-bit DAC communicate by I2S). But the DSD On from Amanero is connected toward the DAC output displays, therefore the DAC is showing DSD Native



Now, if the USB is sending multi bit of DOP128, which the Amanero was coded to bypass straight into the end chains of I2S output, the DSD-On is not realized because it is seeing and receiving multi-bit. Therefore the rate of this DOP is going to be displayed DOP128 as the Altera realizes that it is having DOP128 but the Xillints is not taking in 1bit signal. Therefore the DSD-on is not triggered, and so the DAC display DOP 128

 

[Whitigir]

Look at this respond

dux servit said Interesting. The linked site says "HDMI I2S Port - PCM - PS AUDIO SPECS". What does that mean? (PCM only?)DSD playback you get via DoP.SAMPLE RATES

* HDMI I2S OUT: 44.1 Khz - 384 Khz | 16-32 bit

384 Khz means DSD128 playback is possible.

I2S will always have to be DOP. So what comes out after the Amanero, Singxer SU1 ? Or F1 ? Into the R7 board ? I2S !!

Also, I found r2r7 lists:

I2S mode: 44.1kHz - 384kHz /32Bit DSD64-512

This means, you can ofcourse use the DDC externally to receive DSD512 and break down to DOP512, and feed the r2r7 by Direct I2S input (HDMI)

The limitation on the USB input of DSD256 is listed due to the capability limitations of Amanero only. However, as I observed, the Cyclone is not doing it job correctly, or Kingwa has not perfected the way the Cyclone is handling DSD512, so...it sucks

 

[Whitigir]

Actually, I don’t think Amanero can bypass DOP over I2S. I am looking for a solution of how to get DOP straight into LKS004 LoL

 

[Chopin75]

USB is universal, it can carry whatever, and that means 1 bit of data or multi bit. Spdif and i2s are multi bit only and not universal, therefore they have to have DOP in order to travel through them.

Look at how the Amanero display this . See the red circle ? DSD-On. This means , if the receiving signals are 1 bit, Amanero realizes it is getting DSD, so it display DSD-on by this output, and according to the rate, the DSDX is going to be displayed. However, this signals then get converted to DOP in order to travel into the DAC (all Multi-bit DAC communicate by I2S). But the DSD On from Amanero is connected toward the DAC output displays, therefore the DAC is showing DSD Native



Now, if the USB is sending multi bit of DOP128, which the Amanero was coded to bypass straight into the end chains of I2S output, the DSD-On is not realized because it is seeing and receiving multi-bit. Therefore the rate of this DOP is going to be displayed DOP128 as the Altera realizes that it is having DOP128 but the Xillints is not taking in 1bit signal. Therefore the DSD-on is not triggered, and so the DAC display DOP 128

Ok, actually the example stated I think is not using Amenero board, and via HDMI sending
I2S, it bypassed the USB board. The PS audio has a separate I2S input from the USB, and so USB is entirely bypassed. Unless u mean the I2S somehow still gets to the amenero which would’n’t make sense.
We are not talking the same thing.
I think u are talking about the I2S sending from the amenero board which surely is DoP, unless it starts to unpack into DSD at the board, but from what u said it is sent as DoP to be unpacked somewhere else. So forget amenero board, try to see if I2S via HDMI can be Native DSD or not, as stated in the websites of the DDC products - native DSD via I2S/HDMI. (And shouldn’t I2S signal in a SACD be Native DSD then? It can’t be DoP) Unless they are all wrong and Magna is wrong about Audio-gd only able to receive native DSD. Via I2S input. If so then none of the DDCs would work on the audio-gd R2R. I will ask Kingwa the MAN directly then.

 

[DACLadder]

- DSD is a 1-bit stream clocked at 2.8224Mhz for DSD64
- DSD native is a 16-bit encoding of the DSD steam clocked at 176Khz for DSD64. 2.8224Mhz/16 = 176.4kHz. Requires extra control or mode signals to inform the DAC whether the incoming data is PCM or DSD native.
- DoP sends the same DSD native over existing or compatible 24-bit PCM hardware interfaces like I2S and SPDIF. The upper 8-bits encode a repeating data pattern that the DAC recognizes as DoP and changes mode accordingly. No extra control or mode signalling required.

The 16-bit data from DoP and DSD native are identical. So yes the R7 is compatible with DSD native data but there are no control/ mode pins connected. It has to rely on the DoP upper 8-bits to make a decision on which way to process the data.

After reading the Singxers are both DSD native and DoP capable at the same time.

 

[Whitigir]

Ok, actually the example stated I think is not using Amenero board, and via HDMI sending
I2S, it bypassed the USB board. The PS audio has a separate I2S input from the USB, and so USB is entirely bypassed. Unless u mean the I2S somehow still gets to the amenero which would’n’t make sense.
We are not talking the same thing.
I think u are talking about the I2S sending from the amenero board which surely is DoP, unless it starts to unpack into DSD at the board, but from what u said it is sent as DoP to be unpacked somewhere else. So forget amenero board, try to see if I2S via HDMI can be Native DSD or not, as stated in the websites of the DDC products - native DSD via I2S/HDMI. (And shouldn’t I2S signal in a SACD be Native DSD then? It can’t be DoP) Unless they are all wrong and Magna is wrong about Audio-gd only able to receive native DSD. Via I2S input. If so then none of the DDCs would work on the audio-gd R2R. I will ask Kingwa the MAN directly then.

It is used to communicate PCM audio data between integrated circuits in an electronic devicE

Wikilink

- DSD is a 1-bit stream clocked at 2.8Mhz for DSD64
- DSD native is a 16-bit encoding of the DSD steam clocked at 176Khz for DSD64. Requires extra control or mode signals to inform the DAC whether the incoming data is PCM or DSD native.
- DoP sends the same DSD native over existing or compatible 24-bit PCM hardware interfaces like I2S. The upper 8-bits encode a repeating data pattern that the DAC recognizes as DoP and changes mode accordingly. No extra control or mode signalling required.

The 16-bit data from DoP and DSD native are identical. So yes the R7 is compatible with DSD native but there are no control/ mode pins connected. It has to rely on the DoP upper 8-bits to make a decision on ehich way to process the data.

After reading the Singxers are both DSD native and DoP capable at the same time.

Jackpot! Best answer here

Also, I think after this much reading, only Xmos is capable of DOP and DSD processing Was no surprises on Singxer SU1), and I still am not sure ablout Amanero

However, I want to have a DDC that can do dsd1024 to i2s out

And we need r2r7 to do a better job on DSD512 lol

 

[Chopin75]

Here is statement from PS audio, not some Chinese store:
I2S with pure DSD - is this still DoP?
https://www.psaudio.com/directstream-memory-player/

I2S with DSD output stating the rate, and a separate one for coax with DSD over PCM, why would they separate the 2 if both are DoP?
https://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-memory-player/#tab-specs

The DAC is receiving “raw DSD” from I2S
https://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-dac/#tab-specs

 

[Whitigir]

Here is statement from PS audio, not some Chinese store:
I2S with pure DSD - is this still DoP?
https://www.psaudio.com/directstream-memory-player/

I2S with DSD output stating the rate, and a separate one for coax with DSD over PCM, why would they separate the 2 if both are DoP?
https://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-memory-player/#tab-specs

The DAC is receiving “raw DSD” from I2S
https://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-dac/#tab-specs

It is all marketing my friend. Even if DOP, the DSD is still Native. The different is that in the world of Multibit DAC we have to use DOP to process DSD. It becomes that Native DSD is done by and at the DAC Input or done by and at the sources (DOP)

The only real and true Native DSD is to route the DSD directly toward a Single but (1bit DAC). The only DAC that does this is T+A DAC8, as it has customized 1 bit DAC

 

[DACLadder]

With DSD512 you are operating the I2S interface at a 4 times higher data rate than ever intended for PCM. The hardware may not be capable of this speed. What does Kingwa spec as the highest DSD speed?

DSD_64 = 176kHz
DSD128. = 352kHz
DSD256. = 708kHz
DSD512 = 1411kHz

 

[Chopin75]

- DSD is a 1-bit stream clocked at 2.8Mhz for DSD64
- DSD native is a 16-bit encoding of the DSD steam clocked at 176Khz for DSD64. Requires extra control or mode signals to inform the DAC whether the incoming data is PCM or DSD native.
- DoP sends the same DSD native over existing or compatible 24-bit PCM hardware interfaces like I2S. The upper 8-bits encode a repeating data pattern that the DAC recognizes as DoP and changes mode accordingly. No extra control or mode signalling required.

The 16-bit data from DoP and DSD native are identical. So yes the R7 is compatible with DSD native but there are no control/ mode pins connected. It has to rely on the DoP upper 8-bits to make a decision on ehich way to process the data.

After reading the Singxers are both DSD native and DoP capable at the same time.

Ok so it appears the term native DSD is false. Then what is the difference between native DSD and DoP, looks the same then, if both are packaged into PCM-like data.

 

[Whitigir]

With DSD512 you are operating the I2S interface at a 4 times higher data rate than ever intended for PCM. The hardware may not be capable of this speed. What does Kingwa spec as the highest DSD speed?

DSD_64 = 176kHz
DSD128. = 352kHz
DSD256. = 708kHz
DSD512 = 1411kHz

Yes, but FPGA such as Cyclone on the R7 board is fully capable of DSD512 or even 1024. The thing is, how would it handle these signals ?

One thing for sure is that DSD Input is embarrassing on R2R7 in comparison to LKS-004 or even a DX200.