[pejayjay]

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My opinion is that the actual record, be it a CD, Vinyl or a or digital music file - matters the most. A good record will sound good even on entry-level setups while poor recordings (which seem to be today's standard, unfortunately) will sound bad on any setup, and get even worse when upgrading to better gear. The source (DAC, turntable et cetera) and amp are equally important IMO, but this depends on the headphone. For easy-to-drive headphones the source is more important whereas phones with a low efficiency will benefit more from a powerful amp.
However bear in mind that it's the weakest link in the chain which will define the sound of your setup...

 
This makes total sense, particularly concerning the weakest link.
 
It does seem, though, that people tend to prefer harder to drive headphones.  Or rather, the headphone "standards" (HD650s, 600Ohm Beyerdynamics, K701s) are (co)incidentally harder to drive.  Is there something right/wrong to thinking that inefficient headphones + a powerful amp = better sound?
 
Quote:

I have not yet come to "really enjoy the amp"/setup. From my experience with the record player though I learned that the source can make a large difference. My main problem with the current setup is that I find the sound to be somewhat bland or flat, it definitely lacks the punch, the highs are good, but mids and lows are not great, I find my grados and e4c do a much better job of this. Whether a 200$ DAC can fix this is yet to be seen..
 
If you are used to the SR-60's though, then I don't think you will be very satisfied with the iMac -> MkIII -> DT880
 
The bass in of the DT-880 is definitely better controlled than the SR-60, but very weak :S

 
This comment about the bass in the DT880s runs contrary to what I've read about them -- especially compared to SR60s!  Can I ask what the impedance of yours are?  I was just reading this morning about the difference in sound ranging from the level of impedance:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/513393/information-sonic-differences-between-dt770-dt990/
 
That's really bad news about going from the Grados to that setup, 'cause I love my SR60s and that's exactly the combo I was eyeballing.  Could this be a case of you just really enjoying the Grado sound (and so looking for it in other headphones)?  It is quite distinctive...

 

[Katun]

Quote:

Did you set the gain correctly? I liked x5 better than x10 with my HD600's. 

Really? I've got mine set to 10 right now. Maybe I should set it to 5...
 
Dumb question, but how do you know how to set it to 5? There are 4 switches in the amp, and not 2.

 

[foges]

Checked that review and he didn't really say anything about the "intensity" of the bass, i would absolutely agree that the bass is quite accurate, it just not very present. What I mean is, I feel the violins are right next to me, but the bass drums are 30 meters away. Check out this thread, I would tend to agree with him, here is what he wrote:
Quote:

the DT880 had tight and accurate bass, I personally felt it was always understated, if not just plain weak (a/k/a “neutral” to others). I need a bit more “rock” to my headphones in terms of bass punch and extension - I want to smile when I hear and feel the bass, and the DT880’s just don’t seem to have been designed to that end.

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/247037/denon-d5000-vs-dt990-vs-dt880-vs-hd650
 
I guess it depends what type of music you listen to, I listen to a lot of rock. I don't really think it has to do with me missing the grado sound..
 
Quote:

This comment about the bass in the DT880s runs contrary to what I've read about them -- especially compared to SR60s!  Can I ask what the impedance of yours are?  I was just reading this morning about the difference in sound ranging from the level of impedance:  
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/513393/information-sonic-differences-between-dt770-dt990/
 
That's really bad news about going from the Grados to that setup, 'cause I love my SR60s and that's exactly the combo I was eyeballing.  Could this be a case of you just really enjoying the Grado sound (and so looking for it in other headphones)?  It is quite distinctive...

 

[pp312]

I should have made clear that I was referring to the comparison of adequately powered amps, specifically dedicated HP amps versus good quality 2 channel integrateds and receivers. Obviously if you go from a grossly underpowered product to a more than adequately powered one you will notice a big difference.
 
I do agree that one should allow time to acclimatize to a new product.
  

 
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Quote:

You've just come to the same conclusion I came to years ago: that amps make very little difference. The fact is, amps are supposed to merely amplify, and unless they're adding gross colouration, either through bad design or running out of steam, you shouldn't hear them at all. There may be slight--read slight--differences in terms of one being a little warmer or brighter than another, and this can be useful for matching, but you will never turn a veiled headphone into an incisive one, or tone down "hot" treble, unless the amp has tone controls--and that's another story.
 
Incidentally, there have been plenty of comments here over the years (never gathered together unfortunately) from people--even people with $500+ amps--saying they wish they'd never invested so much in their amps as it hasn't paid off. But of course that won't stop people here from posting to say I'm talking through my hat.   

I really disagree, one of the biggest improvements I've ever heard was when I first hooked my Koss Pro4AATs up to my Gilmore lite for the first time (an amp that no one will call grossly colored). The music simply became more involving and impactful, and I suppose that more subtle details were brought out, but that's a less noticeable change. However, that is going from an iPod Nano amp that is truly deficient in powering the beastly Pro4AATs to a decent desktop amplifier with power to spare.
 
 

 

[pejayjay]

Fair enough.  I'm just a little surprised based on what I've read, but without having heard them...  Too bad head-fi doesn't have some sort of headphone co-op sharing program.

<->

 
Maybe closed cans are the way to go for the bass you're looking for.  My TF10s have taught me that a proper seal can make all the difference, particularly when it comes to bass. 
 
 
Quote:

Checked that review and he didn't really say anything about the "intensity" of the bass, i would absolutely agree that the bass is quite accurate, it just not very present. What I mean is, I feel the violins are right next to me, but the bass drums are 30 meters away. Check out this thread, I would tend to agree with him, here is what he wrote:
Quote:

the DT880 had tight and accurate bass, I personally felt it was always understated, if not just plain weak (a/k/a “neutral” to others). I need a bit more “rock” to my headphones in terms of bass punch and extension - I want to smile when I hear and feel the bass, and the DT880’s just don’t seem to have been designed to that end.

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/247037/denon-d5000-vs-dt990-vs-dt880-vs-hd650
 
I guess it depends what type of music you listen to, I listen to a lot of rock. I don't really think it has to do with me missing the grado sound..
 
Quote:

This comment about the bass in the DT880s runs contrary to what I've read about them -- especially compared to SR60s!  Can I ask what the impedance of yours are?  I was just reading this morning about the difference in sound ranging from the level of impedance:  
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/513393/information-sonic-differences-between-dt770-dt990/
 
That's really bad news about going from the Grados to that setup, 'cause I love my SR60s and that's exactly the combo I was eyeballing.  Could this be a case of you just really enjoying the Grado sound (and so looking for it in other headphones)?  It is quite distinctive...

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Did you set the gain correctly? I liked x5 better than x10 with my HD600's. 

That's because they use negative feedback switches which results in a more "tube" sound as you turn the gain up (i.e. less treble, woolier bass). Not to say, all tubes sound like that, but anyway.
 
I preferred the lowest setting on all my phones (i think it was 2? or maybe it was 3).

 

[Zuglufttier]

Congratulations: Somebody just found out that headphones amps don't make a big difference at all. If you really want another or better sound, look for another headphone.
 
DACs and amps will sound a little bit different from each other but not more. I heard and owned quite a lot headphones (see my profile) and could always tell the differences and people who used to have very expensive setups with dedicated amps, DACs, etc. had the same idea about the sound coming from those headphones. I sometimes just put them in my soundcard from the laptop and that's about it. If the headphone is not good or I don't like the sound signature, no amp, DAC or whatever will change that.
 
I gave up spending money on headphone amps and tried a lot of different headphones instead which was way more interesting and satisfying in the end.

 

[Golden Monkey]

ROFL.

 

[Katun]

Quote:

Congratulations: Somebody just found out that headphones amps don't make a big difference at all. If you really want another or better sound, look for another headphone.
 
DACs and amps will sound a little bit different from each other but not more. I heard and owned quite a lot headphones (see my profile) and could always tell the differences and people who used to have very expensive setups with dedicated amps, DACs, etc. had the same idea about the sound coming from those headphones. I sometimes just put them in my soundcard from the laptop and that's about it. If the headphone is not good or I don't like the sound signature, no amp, DAC or whatever will change that.
 
I gave up spending money on headphone amps and tried a lot of different headphones instead which was way more interesting and satisfying in the end.

Very good post. That's what I suspected from the very beginning...

 

[Mad Dude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuglufttier /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I sometimes just put them in my soundcard from the laptop and that's about it. If the headphone is not good or I don't like the sound signature, no amp, DAC or whatever will change that.

Exactly, who needs amps and DACs when we have onboard soundcards?

 
Anyway, I agree on the part that a great amp won't make a bad headphone turn into a good one. And the differences between headphones are usually (!) more noticeable than different amps or sources. As long as those headphones are properly amped, that is...

 

[pejayjay]

So would you recommend, say, an amp that has sufficient current to power hungry headphones and maybe good gain control for lower impedance cans?  And what about SS vs. tubes?  I've heard there's a very noticeable difference here.
 
I mean, I think I understand where you're coming from.  But is this a case of logarithmic returns?  That is, once you reach a certain level (maybe ~$300 amp or dac), the differences are going to be increasingly subtle.
 
Edit: I hope that didn't sound confrontational.  I'm just keen to learn more before I start a money pit.
 
Quote:

Congratulations: Somebody just found out that headphones amps don't make a big difference at all. If you really want another or better sound, look for another headphone.
 
DACs and amps will sound a little bit different from each other but not more. I heard and owned quite a lot headphones (see my profile) and could always tell the differences and people who used to have very expensive setups with dedicated amps, DACs, etc. had the same idea about the sound coming from those headphones. I sometimes just put them in my soundcard from the laptop and that's about it. If the headphone is not good or I don't like the sound signature, no amp, DAC or whatever will change that.
 
I gave up spending money on headphone amps and tried a lot of different headphones instead which was way more interesting and satisfying in the end.

 

[Golden Monkey]

Quote:

But is this a case of logarithmic returns?  That is, once you reach a certain level (maybe ~$300 amp or dac), the differences are going to be increasingly subtle.
 

 
That's a pretty fair assumption, yes.  You'll find that ANY dedicated headphone amp {or DAC} is better in some way than none at all.  From there on up, there are just shades of grey.  Of course some are better than others, depending on what else is in the chain, but you also have to understand what you're listening for and understand the capabilities of certain pieces of equipment...if you're listening for "major" differences in an amp, you're likely to not notice the finer details.  Sometimes you just don't know what you were missing, but things like transient response and impressions of soundstage are much more subtle from item by item.  Differences is headphones are easy as pie...differences in well designed and implimented DACs, not so much.

 

[Zuglufttier]

I don't care for tubes. When properly done, they should sound like a good transistor amp If you're looking for a different sound, go ahead.
 
Anyway, I think, I'd take a good USB soundcard like the Dr. DAC prime e.g. at any time. It has a builtin headphone amp using the TPA6210. In that case you end up with a good sound card and an amp that's able to drive high and low impedance phones. That is, when you have your music on a computer of some kind.

 

[pejayjay]

Quote:

That's a pretty fair assumption, yes.  You'll find that ANY dedicated headphone amp {or DAC} is better in some way than none at all.  From there on up, there are just shades of grey.  Of course some are better than others, depending on what else is in the chain, but you also have to understand what you're listening for and understand the capabilities of certain pieces of equipment...if you're listening for "major" differences in an amp, you're likely to not notice the finer details.  Sometimes you just don't know what you were missing, but things like transient response and impressions of soundstage are much more subtle from item by item.  Differences is headphones are easy as pie...differences in well designed and implimented DACs, not so much.

 
What I've noticed is that it's only after listening to the D10 for the last half a year, that when I listen to something else the difference in quality becomes so apparent.  I imagine that experience and exposure (and variety!) has a lot to do with these judgments. 
 
Anyway, your advise sounds about right to me.  Still feel as though it would be good to make a couple of these "mistakes" on my own -- in particular, the tube vs. transistor sound difference -- but after trying to pick up a decent base Amp/DAC combo, I think the focus will be on headphones from then on.  
 
Quote:

I don't care for tubes. When properly done, they should sound like a good transistor amp If you're looking for a different sound, go ahead.
 
Anyway, I think, I'd take a good USB soundcard like the Dr. DAC prime e.g. at any time. It has a builtin headphone amp using the TPA6210. In that case you end up with a good sound card and an amp that's able to drive high and low impedance phones. That is, when you have your music on a computer of some kind.

 
Yeah, it's almost exclusively from the computer now, and so it does make sense to have more computer-based I/O options.  I'm gunna have to find something that supports linux (the Dr. DAC prime doesn't by the looks of things), but I'll definitely look into other USB soundcards.
 
@Katun Sorry for hijacking your thread!

 

[Zuglufttier]

The Dr. DAC prime worked fine with FreeBSD and Linux with me, there are no special drivers needed just the generic driver for usb audio.