[logwed]

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You've just come to the same conclusion I came to years ago: that amps make very little difference. The fact is, amps are supposed to merely amplify, and unless they're adding gross colouration, either through bad design or running out of steam, you shouldn't hear them at all. There may be slight--read slight--differences in terms of one being a little warmer or brighter than another, and this can be useful for matching, but you will never turn a veiled headphone into an incisive one, or tone down "hot" treble, unless the amp has tone controls--and that's another story.
 
Incidentally, there have been plenty of comments here over the years (never gathered together unfortunately) from people--even people with $500+ amps--saying they wish they'd never invested so much in their amps as it hasn't paid off. But of course that won't stop people here from posting to say I'm talking through my hat.   

I really disagree, one of the biggest improvements I've ever heard was when I first hooked my Koss Pro4AATs up to my Gilmore lite for the first time (an amp that no one will call grossly colored). The music simply became more involving and impactful, and I suppose that more subtle details were brought out, but that's a less noticeable change. However, that is going from an iPod Nano amp that is truly deficient in powering the beastly Pro4AATs to a decent desktop amplifier with power to spare.
 
My philosophy with gear is that differences are pretty difficult to hear when going from a familiar component to a new piece of hardware. I suppose that this is due to the fact that you are very used to listening to your older equipment, you know what parts are well played on your older gear on it so you tend to listen to what is already strong on the old setup and that would decrease the relative benefit of a new component. Also, any difference if noticed is most likely going to be pretty strange and you might not appreciate the new sound for what it is at first. The last part I really noticed when I got my HD650s as an upgrade to the Koss set, I was kind of mystified by the sound and I wasn't totally sure that I liked it.
 
Because of these things, I feel that someone needs time to settle into gear before making evaluations on how something sounds, and even if there is an improvement or not. I suggest to the OP what I do myself. Listen exclusively with the amp for a week or two. Just enjoy the music, don't worry about highs/mids/lows whatever because they aren't important to the enjoyment of music anyway. Then, after that time, feel free to try listening through whatever setup you were using before. I can almost guarantee that you will feel that either there is something missing, or there is at least some qualifiable difference in sound that you notice. 

 

[Katun]

I may not just be tuned in to the differences yet, so I plan on comparing them more later. I could imagine there is a difference between using the MKIII and not, but I may just not have picked up on it yet. But, it's good to know I'm running it out of a tube amp, rather then just out of the CD player. So maybe, even the possible placebo can make this setup sound better! (And I'm sure it has!)

 
I also may try some more tube rolling the future. I'll just have to wait for some of the MKIII "good" tubes to start popping up on eBay and such. But for now, I'm find with my Slyvania's until something catches my eye. But hey, at least I'm getting a great volume out of my HD650s! (And probably a more full sound as well!) Only time will tell.

 

[foges]

Had the exact same experience a year go with a DT880 and LD MkIII, found no difference. Plugged the setup into a B&O record player and the difference was amazing. So now I'm in the process of getting a DAC for my iMac, to hopefully emulate some of that.
 
I have however come to enjoy the sound out of my DT 880 and LD more and more, guess it does take quite some time before the tubes burn in.

 

[pejayjay]

So are you likewise in agreement (with what seems to be the general trend of this thread) that it's the analog source (e.g. the DAC output, or record player) that really matters?  Or have you come around to the really enjoying the amp?
 
I was looking at exactly this setup and I'd love to get some opinions.
 
Quote:

Had the exact same experience a year go with a DT880 and LD MkIII, found no difference. Plugged the setup into a B&O record player and the difference was amazing. So now I'm in the process of getting a DAC for my iMac, to hopefully emulate some of that.
 
I have however come to enjoy the sound out of my DT 880 and LD more and more, guess it does take quite some time before the tubes burn in.

 

[Mad Dude]

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I have however come to enjoy the sound out of my DT 880 and LD more and more, guess it does take quite some time before the tubes burn in.

It's your ears which become accustomed to the sound of your setup rather than the tubes burning in - As others wrote before, it often takes a while until you start hearing differences between amps or other audio gear. However once you got used to the sound, you will likely be surprised when listening to your old equipment again... At least that's my experience.
 
Anyway, the source can be just as important as the amp (or even more). Upgrading from the integrated DAC in some CD player to a stand-alone DAC will certainly be a worthwhile improvement.
 
 
When looking back, I'd most likely get one of the affordable DAC/SS Amp combos instead of a cheap tube amp such as the MKIII. This would also allow the possibility to get a more powerful amp later and use the combo as DAC only.
This reminds me that I have to replace my DAC Magic sooner rather than later... Poor wallet!
 
Quote:

So are you likewise in agreement [...] that it's the analog source (e.g. the DAC output, or record player) that really matters?

 
My opinion is that the actual record, be it a CD, Vinyl or a or digital music file - matters the most. A good record will sound good even on entry-level setups while poor recordings (which seem to be today's standard, unfortunately) will sound bad on any setup, and get even worse when upgrading to better gear.
The source (DAC, turntable et cetera) and amp are equally important IMO, but this depends on the headphone. For easy-to-drive headphones the source is more important whereas phones with a low efficiency will benefit more from a powerful amp.
However bear in mind that it's the weakest link in the chain which will define the sound of your setup...

 

[Katun]

So, I guess my main question now is: Should I buy a stand alone DAC to bypass the one in my CD player?
 
If that brings forth good improvement, then I would be more than happy to look into it.

 

[Golden Monkey]

Another thing you SHOULD notice but won't under short listening times is that the HD650, being a little harder to drive, can really cause an amp to just run out of juice during extended dynamic passages.  I know with my old MKV if I listened to a loud rockin' CD for a while it started to sound a little flat and boring after a while until things mellowed out and the amp could build up power reserves again.  This is something that will definitely happen with a component's headphone out or a janky little solid state amp, but will be less of an issue with a tube amp.
 
EDIT: Also, how long has the amp itself been used/burned in?  Not just the tubes, mind you.  The capacitors in an amp also need time to break in and settle down, and an out of the box amp is just going to sound dull and thin in comparison to one with settled caps.  When I got my Woo back from Jack after having it recapped with Black Gates I was astounded at how different the amp sounded and how that sound actually changed over time...great one day, constricted and dull the next, bright and clear the next, etc.  BG's are notorious for having a long burn-in period, but I'm at around 250 hours or so on them and I'm JUST beginning to reap the benefits of better and more consistant sound.  Some say I still have another 150 or more hours to go *sigh*...

 

[Mad Dude]

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So, I guess my main question now is: Should I buy a stand alone DAC to bypass the one in my CD player?

In short - yes.
You could also sell your MKIII and look into DAC/Amp combos.

 

[Golden Monkey]

Oh, and as for a DAC making a huge improvement or not...yes and no.  If your original source component is decent enough, adding an external DAC to the chain MAY be detrimental to your end result...more connections, more crap in the signal path, etc.  Also it comes down to the analog out section of the DAC.  Something with a discrete analog section and well designed digital and analog sections will yield an improvement and smooth the edges of that digital harshness, imparting a more musical nature to your listening.  This difference can be quite dramatic if your source is poor, and much less so (or not at all) if it's decent.  Either way, you kind of need to know what you're listening FOR to decide if you need one or not.  A lot of the improvements are very very subtle.

 

[foges]

I have not yet come to "really enjoy the amp"/setup. From my experience with the record player though I learned that the source can make a large difference. My main problem with the current setup is that I find the sound to be somewhat bland or flat, it definitely lacks the punch, the highs are good, but mids and lows are not great, I find my grados and e4c do a much better job of this. Whether a 200$ DAC can fix this is yet to be seen..
 
If you are used to the SR-60's though, then I don't think you will be very satisfied with the iMac -> MkIII -> DT880
 
The bass in of the DT-880 is definitely better controlled than the SR-60, but very weak :S
 
Quote:

So are you likewise in agreement (with what seems to be the general trend of this thread) that it's the analog source (e.g. the DAC output, or record player) that really matters?  Or have you come around to the really enjoying the amp?
 
I was looking at exactly this setup and I'd love to get some opinions.

 

[wompa164]

What kind of music are you listening to? I went from a SB X-Fi -> HD650 setup to the one in my signature and the difference was NIGHT and DAY. I couldn't believe the difference, though it took a few hours before all the subtle differences and details started sinking in.
 
It's strange that you notice NO difference between your originally setup and amplified setup, especially since the HD650s are fairly notorious for being difficult to drive without a good amp. Maybe the real problem is your source or music (or even maybe your ears).

 

[Katun]

Quote:

What kind of music are you listening to? I went from a SB X-Fi -> HD650 setup to the one in my signature and the difference was NIGHT and DAY. I couldn't believe the difference, though it took a few hours before all the subtle differences and details started sinking in.
 
It's strange that you notice NO difference between your originally setup and amplified setup, especially since the HD650s are fairly notorious for being difficult to drive without a good amp. Maybe the real problem is your source or music (or even maybe your ears).

Yup, strange indeed. But that is exactly what my ears hear.
 
I listen to all kinds of music, and have tested all kinds of music.

 

[wompa164]

I would look at your source next. Where did you purchase your HD650s from?

 

[olor1n]

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So, I guess my main question now is: Should I buy a stand alone DAC to bypass the one in my CD player?
 
If that brings forth good improvement, then I would be more than happy to look into it.

Have a look at the Audio-GD gear. People are anticipating two new models (NFB12/NFB11) that are priced ridiculously low that given Audio-GD's prior record and standing it's almost a no-brainer.

 

[Poetik]

Did you set the gain correctly? I liked x5 better than x10 with my HD600's.