[Nickol]

The one exception I can think of is from Audio GD and it sounds pretty awful in my experience... so I try to forget it even exists (and I actually like Audio GD, in general). Seeing this hole in the market, Massdrop paired up with Airist Audio to bring us their own exclusive take on the discrete R-2R DAC

Well, of course, you so expectedly expressed, it is necessary to somehow promote the newly made product. old tactic of talking about the worst / best)), so the person who is used to thinking will not succumb to this influence and similar sponsored reviews.

 

[Nickol]

Your preference definitely makes sense. How close does the RDAC get to Hugo 2's resolution? Would you say its closer to Mojo in that respect?

I definitely know and I can say to you that any R2R products in the current implementation for $ 350-450 will not reach the level Chord Hugo 2. Miracles do not happen, you are not in a fairy tale.

 

[gLer]

Well, of course, you so expectedly expressed, it is necessary to somehow promote the newly made product. old tactic of talking about the worst / best)), so the person who is used to thinking will not succumb to this influence and similar sponsored reviews.

I tend to ignore people who don’t know what they’re talking about. Like dismissing the R2R-11 as “awful”. I’m not sure what that guy is smoking but it can’t be good. I’ve seen nothing but praise for the R2R-11 (aside for the popping issue, which is not gone, and the DSD issue, which isn’t), and personally it’s one of the best dac/amp combos I’ve heard with my not-so-cheap headphones. Maybe he has a thing against ladder dacs, I don’t know? I know some people prefer the super detailed, super clean, super dry, super digital presentation of Sabre and similar DS dacs, but I’m not one of them.

 

[gLer]

I definitely know and I can say to you that any R2R products in the current implementation for $ 350-450 will not reach the level Chord Hugo 2. Miracles do not happen, you are not in a fairy tale.

I think it’s difficult to compare something like NOS R2R sound to that of the Hugo 2. Two different animals. Nothing to do with price (and the Hugo 2, like all Chord products in my opinion, is stupidly overpriced and very poor value, no matter how good it is).

 

[Raphael DeLaGhetto]

UPDATE:
I replied a message to Will yesterday talking about my detailed design timeline picture by picture from 2015 until now, my personal preference unnecessary design such as big transistor, buffer opamps, logic switches and the request of their prototype pictures in timeline form.

Today, Will reply talking irrelevant topic i.e. r2r topology in Chinese forum(glad to know they are still with Airist), and refused my request saying that they dont have any picture to prove they was designing the same as mine.


He is trying to pasuade me that they have done the same thing in the same form without any proof, denying the fact. However, not every customer will believe your story, but quickly drain your hard-earned reputation.

So, what exactly do you want out of this? You didn't file a patent so anyone Massdrop or otherwise were free to use your design. Do you want them to just admit that they copied it? Because at this point even if you get that I think that's all you'll get. I'm having a hard time following the legality argument because of that.

 

[omniweltall]

I'll skip the usual introductory stuff about the Massdrop x Airist Audio R-2R DAC (referred to as RDAC from here on out). You can read all that stuff on their product page.

Though, I will drop a quick note that I dig the slimmer height profile. I really like what Massdrop has going on visually with these audio products. Moving on...

I actually rather like the RDAC. I am pretty skeptical of discrete R-2R DACs based on past listening. Some have just been absolutely horrendous in my mind, whereas even the better ones always seemed to be missing something compared to a good chip-based DAC. The good ones seem to have this sort of noise removal effect that cleans up some of the microscopic goodies in your music.

Color me surprised with the RDAC. It doesn't sound nasty, it doesn't sound boring, and it doesn't really sound like it's missing so much of that something. Or, if it is, I'm having a really hard time worrying about it given the positive aspects of the DAC and the relatively low price.

If I had to quickly describe the RDAC's sound, it has a slightly warm, yet balanced, character and quick, but slightly soft, transients. Some might use descriptors like "analog," "musical," or "organic." It actually reminds me of the newer Metrum DACs with the latest modules. Think laid-back, but still engaged in its role. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's like a lower priced Amethyst, but a little less forward in staging and more straddling that line between oversampling and non-oversampling.

The RDAC has a nice, full, powerful low end with good extension. The midrange is liquid and free of congestion. The treble is on the softer side of things but has an effortless, clear quality to it, even if some of the overall details seem to not pop as much as they should. Unless you are opposed to this warmer tone and liquid, but very slightly soft timbre, it should just flow with ease in listening.

It also has a nice sense of swing and micro-dynamics to it. It's nimble and grooves nicely even despite it's warmer, softer leanings. It's never boring, veiled, or smothering.

The Schiit Modi Multibit (aka Mimby), in comparison, is more congested and grainy sounding overall. It struggles more with dense, complex material. It's not quite as powerful and extended in the low end. It sounds a bit more compressed when handling quick, staccato-like micro-dynamics. But the Mimby still shares similar macro-dynamic characteristics with the RDAC, maybe just slightly edging it out. Tough call.

However, the Mimby does excel when it comes to portraying room acoustics, reverb, air, and an overall well-rounded, three-dimensional view of most individual elements in your music. Drums in particular seem more tangible and real on the Mimby, including the way the sound decays in the room.

The RDAC, on the other hand, reminds me more of non-oversampling in how it excels with vocals, giving them a sense of being attached to a body with a chest cavity rather than simply being a recording through a mic. (Usually NOS makes almost all individual elements sound more 3D to me, albeit sometimes less focused too, but I don't think the RDAC fully captures that here quite as well as the Mimby. Like I said, the RDAC kind of straddles that OS and NOS line, so it's hard to stereotype its performance.)

While the RDAC may initially seem to have better layering than the Mimby, I think that's because the RDAC is more laid-back sounding. The Mimby is more aggressive and forward. But if you listen closely, the Mimby bests the RDAC when you pull out live recordings or the like. You get a greater sense of 3D layering and room or venue acoustics. Not that the RDAC does poorly here, mind you (it's at least good), but that Schiit house filter does wonders to music in certain areas.

Still, staging, layering, and some level of tangibility aside, the RDAC sounds very confident and sure of itself without a sense of showing off. The RDAC has that easy-going, natural, and musical swing sort of personality in spades.

In terms of resolution and detail, I think the RDAC and Mimby are fairly close. Nothing really seems to be missing from the RDAC, though the presentation is certainly different due to the softer nature and lack of Schiit's own digital filter technology. I expect to see differing opinions on which is more resolving based on what one listens for. Even in my comparisons above, you see where they have different strengths and can imagine how a sense of resolution and detail might play out in one's mind.

And that's what I think it boils down to: presentation. The RDAC to me doesn't seem like it's necessarily competing with the Mimby. They both have their pros and cons. When I circle back to thinking of the RDAC as more akin to the newer, excellent Metrum DACs, its purpose snaps into focus. I love those DACs, and the RDAC taps into that same feeling.

At the $350 price point, the RDAC offers a lot for the money. Not everyone will love it, and that's fine. I think it offers something for those that lean more towards the non-oversampling sort of realm than it does those more fond of Schiit's latest multibit offerings. Or, even if you're just curious to try a different flavor, the price point presents little risk. Newcomers should rest easy knowing that, presentation differences aside, they're still getting a really great sounding DAC.

So, yeah, I'm pretty enthusiastic about the RDAC and was caught off guard when asked to check it out last minute. And I was certainly skeptical. But I'm already pretty fond of it. It's well worth checking out so long as you know it may not cater to your particular tastes. For the type of sound it targets, it meets its goal and at a low price. Most DACs aiming for this sort of sound are either too expensive or are underwhelming regardless of price. This is an excellent addition to a relatively thin subset of the market.

Source note: Only tested both DACs with the Soundaware D100 via SPDIF.

Excellent review, Hans.

Wow, great and objective reviews on a product. This is rare.

 

[Torq]

What about Gumby, Torq?

I'm not trying to be "spiky" here, but I'm going to answer indirectly ... mostly because I think a lot of these comparisons are getting rather silly. The more so because little X > Y > Z lists are only speaking to my listening preferences (which won't necessarily be the same as those of others and, consequently, are of relatively limited value) and ignore all other considerations - including the details of why and what technical aspects are at play, as well as practicality and value.

To put things in perspective, Hugo 2 currently costs $2,695. That will buy you a Gungnir MB and an RDAC and a Mojo and a nice little Lyr 3 to run them through, and still leave change for cables.

I wouldn't personally use Hugo 2 as a dedicated desktop unit, and in fact find it's desktop ergonomics sufficiently awkward that the only time mine gets used on the desktop is when I'm comparing it to other DACs. That's why the Qutest exists. And I would also use a Gungnir MB as a desktop/fixed DAC before I used a Hugo 2 in that environment, for the same reasons. Hugo 2 would be (and indeed is) my choice for mobile and/or transportable use for, hopefully, obvious reasons.

Both Hugo 2 and Gungnir MB outperform the RDAC comfortably and both are more enjoyable to listen to (for me) - something that should be a surprise to no one. I'm inclined to doubt that people are really cross-shopping Hugo 2 and Gungnir MB, let alone Hugo 2 and an RDAC. While, per my review, I was surprised to find how far I had to go to find a DAC that I enjoyed listening to more, overall, than the RDAC - that point is likely different for everyone.

 

[MarkArtz]

The one exception I can think of is from Audio GD and it sounds pretty awful in my experience... so I try to forget it even exists (and I actually like Audio GD, in general). Seeing this hole in the market.

There is nothing else that I love more than "cheap sold reviewers." A hole in the market? huh? And now Massdrop with their 6 months shipping delay is filling that hole?

 

[Nickol]

I tend to ignore people who don’t know what they’re talking about. Like dismissing the R2R-11 as “awful”. I’m not sure what that guy is smoking but it can’t be good. I’ve seen nothing but praise for the R2R-11 (aside for the popping issue, which is not gone, and the DSD issue, which isn’t), and personally it’s one of the best dac/amp combos I’ve heard with my not-so-cheap headphones. Maybe he has a thing against ladder dacs, I don’t know? I know some people prefer the super detailed, super clean, super dry, super digital presentation of Sabre and similar DS dacs, but I’m not one of them.

This is the person (project86) who at the begining became popularity and rating on the forums, and after that he has long been living making who needs profitable reviews for payment.
An order was received from the Massdrop (or someone there), the task is to "make" the review and drop it on the forum/s, which would arouse confidence and at the same time tarnish the competitor - here you are, welcome! This is an old, long-standing tactic of corrupt and already distant, unfortunately from the objectivity of people.

 

[SamusAran]

Unless someone has a stake in MD or the RDAC (read: MD shareholders or sosolar), not sure why anyone would get so hot and bothered on this forum, especially over reviews. Seriously, go outside; go on a date. There's gotta be something more productive than venting over a product that you're not going to buy anyway. If fighting corruption and dishonesty is your thing, run for local office or something. Or you know, keep typing away furiously on HF, whatev...

Still interested in users sharing their knowledge and experiences with sound if any one still wants to discuss that.

 

[project86]

Well, of course, you so expectedly expressed, it is necessary to somehow promote the newly made product. old tactic of talking about the worst / best)), so the person who is used to thinking will not succumb to this influence and similar sponsored reviews.

Or maybe it's just the "old tactic" of being completely honest about what I think... the Audio GD product in question sounded terrible in my system, and I'm far from the only person who feels that way. Sorry if that offends you.

I tend to ignore people who don’t know what they’re talking about. Like dismissing the R2R-11 as “awful”. I’m not sure what that guy is smoking but it can’t be good. I’ve seen nothing but praise for the R2R-11 (aside for the popping issue, which is not gone, and the DSD issue, which isn’t), and personally it’s one of the best dac/amp combos I’ve heard with my not-so-cheap headphones. Maybe he has a thing against ladder dacs, I don’t know? I know some people prefer the super detailed, super clean, super dry, super digital presentation of Sabre and similar DS dacs, but I’m not one of them.

Again, sorry I hit a sore spot by disliking a piece of equipment. Didn't think anyone would be so sensitive about it. For every audio product in history, surely there are at least a few detractors.... does that mean we can't enjoy any of them? Or must we track down each detractor and let them know the error of their ways?

The funny thing is, I wasn't even referring to the R2R-11, but rather the Singularity 19. I had assumed (wrongly) that it was priced under $500 because it sold for such low prices on the used market (which is where I got the example that I briefly owned). I was wrong, turns out it cost double what the R2R-11 sells for. My mistake.

In any case, that's the model I (intensely) disliked, and I was not alone in that. I do have a hard time believing Kingwa has somehow transformed it into a vastly better product, with a headphone amp, for half the price. But I could be wrong as I've never heard the R2R-11.

If you go back about 5-6 years (long before you were on this forum) you'll find my extremely positive review of the Audio GD Reference 7. So clearly I'm not against Audio GD or R2R designs in every instance.

There is nothing else that I love more than "cheap sold reviewers." A hole in the market? huh? And now Massdrop with their 6 months shipping delay is filling that hole?

Not sure what you mean by "cheap sold reviewers"... who are you even quoting there?

I can assure you that while I do routinely get paid for my reviews at a variety of sites (InnerFidelity and Darko.Audio being my current employers), I also continue writing things up at HeadFi for fun. As I've done hundreds of times, for free, over the past 8 years or so. I have a full-time day job from which I derive 99% of my income, and I have no need to sell out for this little side hobby.

And yes, there is a huge lack of discrete R2R DACs in the sub-$500 space, as I said in my write up. Unless you have a bunch of counterexamples? Shipping times from Massdrop notwithstanding, a single product from Audio GD does not fill that gap.

This is the person (project86) who at the begining became popularity and rating on the forums, and after that he has long been living making who needs profitable reviews for payment.
An order was received from the Massdrop (or someone there), the task is to "make" the review and drop it on the forum/s, which would arouse confidence and at the same time tarnish the competitor - here you are, welcome! This is an old, long-standing tactic of corrupt and already distant, unfortunately from the objectivity of people.

Thanks, new guy, for enlightening the forum on how all this works. Too bad you have no clue what you are talking about.

On the off chance you actually want to know how it really goes, rather than just complaining because I dissed your chosen brand: Massdrop and dozens of other companies send me gear to evaluate. I listen, and the stuff I think is worthy of discussion, gets a review. The rest goes right back to the manufacturer with the most polite feedback I can muster as to why I don't find it competitive and won't be spending any further time on it.

Again, I have been doing this for many years - initially just for fun here, and later at InnerFidelity once Tyll Hertsens decided he enjoyed my style and trusted my conclusions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me 100% of the time, but to get mad that I disliked a product (in this case, a different Audio GD product than the one you own) seems a bit unreasonable.

Notice that my review of the Airist R2R DAC ends up being quite similar to the other folks who posted their impressions? That's not because we discussed it in advance... I had no idea who else had one, and I don't regularly chat with any of those other folks who put down their thoughts in this thread. No, what you have here is a group of experienced listeners who happened to come to (mostly) the same independent conclusions. That's kind of a rare, and it says something about the quality of the DAC in question.




Unrelated to the above squabbling, I have to weigh in on the controversy regarding the potential theft of a portion of this design. I, like most people here, had never heard of @sosolar, and never seen his original designs. Upon reading about it, and seeing the initial replies from Massdrop and Airist, it seemed clear to me that the top board of the Airist design goes beyond "similarity". I immediately reached out to @CEETEE and let him know my thoughts: that this was obviously a copy, likely done by the "outside consultant" used by Airist, and that the best coarse of action would be to delay the project until everything is worked out with @sosolar.

I am of the opinion that Massdrop had no knowledge of this before hand, and Airist may or may not have known... but once it became clear to them, they both had a responsibility to straighten it out rather than argue defensively. I don't know where it will end up but I've spoken my mind to Massdrop about it. Believe me - having heard this review unit, I very much want this level of performance to be made available to the community here for such a great price. But not at the cost of Massdrop losing credibility, nor a DIYer being taken advantage of.

That's where I stand on the matter, just to make things clear.

 

[MarkArtz]

Not sure what you mean by "cheap sold reviewers"... who are you even quoting there?

Why write negative about a product to praise another? That's cheap in my book. Reading at your "review" you can express well with words and have a knowledge of the hobby, but there is no need to label a product as worthless piece of crap just to "advertise" another. I have nothing against massdrop, I buy once in a while from them, but there is no way that MD will fill the gap. Regardless your need to "elevate" MD's new product to the highest rate, I still think the r2r-11 is a good product and I dont have an "awful" experience with all the contrary.
Ever since "companies" started paying "reviewers" any "review" is worthless to me, most (99.9%) are paid ads deceiving in all aspects.

 

[PopZeus]

I've been trying to sort out my thoughts on the board issue. It seems like there is a legal issue of IP theft. I have no idea how that works here or in China. Is Airist liable somehow to @sosolar? If not Airist, then is Massdrop is liable? Seems less likely, but again, I admit I know nothing about any of this. Anyways, that seems like one thing. Then there's the ethical question which does impact Airist and Massdrop, but that's less what are they compelled to do versus what should they do. What happened there, what did they know or chose to ignore? What should be done to make things right? Hopefully the solution involves going ahead with the RDAC as I very much want something like this product to exist.

 

[project86]

Why write negative about a product to praise another? That's cheap in my book. Reading at your "review" you can express well with words and have a knowledge of the hobby, but there is no need to label a product as worthless piece of crap just to "advertise" another. I have nothing against massdrop, I buy once in a while from them, but there is no way that MD will fill the gap. Regardless your need to "elevate" MD's new product to the highest rate, I still think the r2r-11 is a good product and I dont have an "awful" experience with all the contrary.
Ever since "companies" started paying "reviewers" any "review" is worthless to me, most (99.9%) are paid ads deceiving in all aspects.

I wrote negative about the Singularity 19 because that was my experience with it... I (again, wrongly) assumed it was in the sub-$500 range, and thought it relevant to mention since there aren't many in that space using discrete resistor ladder designs. If, down the road, I cover a future Audio GD product and find it superior to a similarly priced competitor, you can be sure I will include that. Even if it's brutal towards the other product. Doesn't that just make sense?

I have to reiterate - you are free to enjoy your R2R-11 as much as you want. Nobody can take that away from you unless you let them. Again, I have not heard that model so I have zero input on it. I've loved prior Audio GD models and hated some too, so it goes both ways.

One more time - Massdrop is not paying anyone to review anything. They send out product in advance to some folks in the community with trusted ears. We write up our thoughts, and the community uses that to decide if they might be interested or not. For you to suggest otherwise is simply dishonest.

Although my review is positive (because I like the DAC in my system), I do try to make it clear that the sound is not ideal for someone who prefers a very sparkly, lit up treble presentation, nor for those who like a massively expansive soundstage. And that's exactly what a review should do - describe the sound in fairly clear terms, so readers can decide if they might want to try it out or not. I can't see why someone would object to that. If, as you say, companies are paying reviewers directly, then that's a whole different story. But that's not what is happening here, nor at InnerFidelity or Darko.Audio where I am paid to contribute.

Hopefully that clears things up a little.

 

[MarkArtz]

" I can assure you that while I do routinely get paid for my reviews at a variety of sites "...One more time - Massdrop is not paying anyone to review anything. They send out product in advance to some folks in the community with trusted ears. We write up our thoughts, and the community uses that to decide if they might be interested or not. For you to suggest otherwise is simply dishonest.

You said you are a paid reviewer. Why would a "paid reviewer" write negative about another product looked as "possible competition"? Simple answer is; to make the sponsor happy.
Professional reviewers aren't informative anymore and I dont blame you, Money Talks but losing objectivity is misinformative.