Lotoo Paw 6000 (2019)
Dec 27, 2021 at 2:59 PM Post #1,231 of 1,457
Bought the Cayin C9 to pair with my paw6000 Nd I am really happy. But I noticed a strange thing: if I connect the balanced 4.4mm at the same fixed output (2.0mv) of single ended the c9 sounds with lower volume, and I need to use high gain to bring at same level.
Anyone with same experience here? Am I doing something wrong?
Could you provide a layout of how you have connected..

Something like this

Lotoo PAW 6000 4.4 mm PO or LO (Low Gain or High Gain) -> Cayin C9 (PreAmp In or Line In) 4.4 mm (Low or High Gain)

If you read the C9 manual, there is something called input sensitivity for High and Low Gain for both preamp and line input modes.

I would recommend this route

Use variable lineout on lotoo paw 6000 (this has higher voltage by setting volume to 100 than fixed lineout) and set it to high gain

On C9, set the mode to line input, control the volume as you desire and use low gain/high gain as needed for your headphone/IEM
 
Dec 29, 2021 at 7:43 AM Post #1,232 of 1,457
Hi, both 3,5mm and 4.4mm on LO and fixed output on paw6000 and C9 in line in. Tried also with variable LO, the result is the same, the gain with 4.4mm path has noticeable lower volume. (Means lower output voltage from lotoo)
 
Dec 29, 2021 at 7:46 AM Post #1,233 of 1,457
@ssriram2791 in your case the 4.4mm path sound the same or higher?
 
Dec 29, 2021 at 12:09 PM Post #1,234 of 1,457
@ssriram2791 in your case the 4.4mm path sound the same or higher?
I am sharing some interesting results based on testing completed this morning after your message

I went ahead and performed sound pressure level measurements using SPL meter on Audio-Technica ATH-R70X by connecting it to Cayin C9 (3.5 mm and 4.4 mm outputs) with different line out configurations on Lotoo PAW 6000

LO -> Line Out
LI -> Line In
SE -> Single Ended (3.5 mm)
BAL -> Balanced (4.4 mm)

Here are my conclusions and supporting data below

1. It is quite clear that PAW6000 Line Out gain settings (Low/High) doesn't have any impact on volume levels. If you try to connect PAW6K in preamp mode to C9, then the DAP gain settings have tremendous impact (about 12-14 dBA headroom).

2. Cayin C9 gain settings provide +6 dBA headroom (i.e going from Low to High)

3. Unfixed LO provides more volume (+6 dBA headroom) than Fixed LO of Lotoo PAW6000 regardless of using 3.5 or 4.4 mm lineouts.

4. Both 3.5 mm and 4.4 mm line outputs from PAW6000 provide the same amount of power (in terms of volume levels) if you use the same outputs (i.e 3.5 mm and 4.4 mm respectively) from C9.

5. Things get more complicated when input output combinations are switched. SE input/BAL output has +12 dBA headroom over BAL input/SE output. SE input here is Lotoo Paw 3.5 to Cayin 3.5 IC. BAL input here is Lotoo Paw 4.4 to Cayin 4.4 IC.

Conclusion #5 could be attributed to the input sensitivity that I mentioned before in one of my messages

1640797310326.png


Basically to convert BAL input into SE output you need higher input voltage coming from source. As we know based on the data, both BAL and SE inputs of LOTOO PAW6000 seem to have same input voltage.

1.5 V (SE input/BAL output) vs 3.0 V (BAL input/SE output)


Test Data
----------

1. 4.4 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms Low Gain --> Cayin C9 LI Low Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 4.4 mm Input/4.4 mm Output --> 85.8 dBA
2. 4.4 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI Low Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 4.4 mm Input/4.4 mm Output --> 85.6 dBA
3. 4.4 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI High Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 4.4 mm Input/4.4 mm Output --> 92.1 dBA
4. 4.4 mm Lotoo PAW6000 UnFixed LO Volume Maxed Out High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI High Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 4.4 mm Input/4.4 mm Output --> 98.7 dBA

5. 3.5 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI Low Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 3.5 mm Input/3.5 mm Output --> 86.1 dBA
6. 3.5 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI High Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 3.5 mm Input/3.5 mm Output --> 92.2 dBA
7. 3.5 mm Lotoo PAW6000 UnFixed LO Volume Maxed Out High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI High Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 3.5 mm Input/3.5 mm Output --> 98.6 dBA

8. 3.5 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI Low Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 3.5 mm Input/4.4 mm Output --> 92.2 dBA
9. 3.5 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI High Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 3.5 mm Input/4.4 mm Output --> 98.6 dBA
10. 3.5 mm Lotoo PAW6000 UnFixed LO Volume Maxed Out High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI High Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 3.5 mm Input/4.4 mm Output --> 104.4 dBA

11. 4.4 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI Low Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 4.4 mm Input/3.5 mm Output --> 79.9 dBA
12. 4.4 mm Lotoo PAW6000 Fixed LO 2 Vrms High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI High Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 4.4 mm Input/3.5 mm Output --> 86.1 dBA
13. 4.4 mm Lotoo PAW6000 UnFixed LO Volume Maxed Out High Gain --> Cayin C9 LI High Gain Solid State Class AB (Volume 50) 4.4 mm Input/3.5 mm Output --> 92.5 dBA
 
Dec 29, 2021 at 1:00 PM Post #1,235 of 1,457
@ssriram2791 what a h*ll of explanation and test, hat off sir!
Now I understand, my question was founded on a "wrong" test: I never changed (or used a BAL to SE adapter) my iem cable that has a 4.4mm adapter, I simply switched the interconnect cable between lotoo and c9.
So when I used the 4.4 interconnect I was in your Nr.1. Test date with an output of 85.8dba (low gain) and when I switched to a 3.5mm interconnect I run into your Nr.8 with an output of 92.2dba (low gain always) hence the higher volume.
Do you think that using a mixed mode input/output instead of a uniform one could result in a worse sound?
 
Dec 29, 2021 at 1:11 PM Post #1,236 of 1,457
@ssriram2791 what a h*ll of explanation and test, hat off sir!
Now I understand, my question was founded on a "wrong" test: I never changed (or used a BAL to SE adapter) my iem cable that has a 4.4mm adapter, I simply switched the interconnect cable between lotoo and c9.
So when I used the 4.4 interconnect I was in your Nr.1. Test date with an output of 85.8dba (low gain) and when I switched to a 3.5mm interconnect I run into your Nr.8 with an output of 92.2dba (low gain always) hence the higher volume.
Do you think that using a mixed mode input/output instead of a uniform one could result in a worse sound?

Happy that the data helped you.

To answer your question, we are again looking at that Cayin C9 spec sheet

1640801060394.png


Look at the channel seperation numbers

SE Input -> SE Output : 75 dBA
BAL Input -> SE Output : 75 dBA
SE Input -> BAL Output : 97 dBA
BAL Input -> BAL Output : 114 dBA

Channel seperation (between left and right channels) is sometimes called "Crosstalk" in audiophile world. You typically dont want bleeding of sound from one channel to another as it affects perceived sound quality.

I would recommend using BAL In --> BAL Out if you have headphones and IEM terminated in Balanced. If not, you can still use BAL -->SE , but you will lose about 6 dBA headroom if it matters (though I would prefer to use SE --> SE on account of higher dynamic range, compared to BAL --> SE)
 
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Dec 29, 2021 at 5:06 PM Post #1,237 of 1,457
No headphones here, but I will stick to Bal/Bal to get the max result from C9.
Again, thanks. :)
 
Jan 4, 2022 at 3:33 PM Post #1,239 of 1,457
Lotoo PAW 6000 VS Cayin N6ii | R01 in a few words/nutshell (sound-wise) — anyone?

@davidmolliere / @twister6 perhaps? Anyone's welcome to chime in though :p
PAW 6000 is one of the most transparent DAPs I have ever owned. Given it has AKM chips, it does have more revealing (a.k.a detail) qualities in the treble region. Clarity sets apart it from everything.

N6ii R01 - Warmth, Musical, Organic, Spacious, Life-like yadda yadda. Detail retrieval is middling, but hey you are not after that - this is fun.

Both have their place in the audiophile arena. It is upto your tastes.
 
Jan 4, 2022 at 3:40 PM Post #1,240 of 1,457
PAW 6000 is one of the most transparent DAPs I have ever owned. Given it has AKM chips, it does have more revealing (a.k.a detail) qualities in the treble region. Clarity sets apart it from everything.

N6ii R01 - Warmth, Musical, Organic, Spacious, Life-like yadda yadda. Detail retrieval is middling, but hey you are not after that - this is fun.

Both have their place in the audiophile arena. It is upto your tastes.
Thanks for the clear, concise, no-BS, answer — much appreciated.
 
Jan 5, 2022 at 11:39 AM Post #1,242 of 1,457
Anyone else?

From another thread where I asked the question:

The R01 is to my ears somewhat aggressively bright - works extremely well with neutral and dark IEMs (one of the best setups I've ever heard is A12t + R01), but it doesn't really do all that well with just about anything that is even slightly bright or forward, since it goes overboard. Sounded absolutely horrible with the Traillii to my ears for example.

The PAW6000 is the ultimate jack of all trades DAP Imo, it does well with literally anything, has a really clean and neutral signature with excellent dynamics - if you're someone that buys and sells a lot of IEMs, I'd heavily recommend it because of how versatile it is, and the fact that it tells you what your IEMs sound quite accurately.

Battery life, usability and UI go to the PAW6000 if you don't need streaming, otherwise go N6II :)

YMMV I guess 🤷🏼‍♂️
 
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Jan 5, 2022 at 11:49 AM Post #1,244 of 1,457
From another thread where I asked the questions:



YMMV I guess 🤷🏼‍♂️
I like R01 with Anole VX (astounding), MEST, SA6, Andromeda, Ananda (Leaning Bright Neutral/V-shape)

I like PAW 6000 with IER-Z1R, NIO, Clairvoyance, Clear (Leaning Warm Neutral/V-shape)
 

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