[TruBrew]

That may work, I have no idea. I know you can adjust the reverb time, but I doubt it will do what you want. My guess is it will do exactly what you would expect, delay the reverb, not extend it. I am not an audio engineer, but don't think it will sound right. When you are in a small room, the reflection comes more quickly because the walls are closer to the source, and in a big room (theater) they take longer for the same reason. The slowing the reverb time will pull the walls farther out, but I don't think it will make them bigger.
 
In a big room like a theater, the walls are huge. There is a very large surface area the sound bounces off of. In a small room, there is less surface area the sound reverberates from. So if you set the reverb time longer, I imagine it will sound as if it is bouncing off of small walls, that are far away. I may be totally wrong, but that is my guess. I really don't think you are going to get a theater sound without going to one.
 
You could use other peoples recording, but that will not sound great, and is not recommended. I may ask some people to send me their recording, just so I can compare them to my own, and see how much of a difference it makes. That is more curiosity than anything else. 
 
On number 2, you mention needing to carefully adjust EQ, echo time, etc. If your room is properly set up, and you are positioned in the correct spot, there is no need to adjust any settings after making the recording.
 
As I mentioned before, The people at Smyth will have much more experience in calibrations and can let you know what happens in you bump the reverb time, and how to best simulate certain room types. My guess is your idea will not provide very good results, but send an email to info@smyth-research.com. Lorr will likely be the one to talk with you. I have sent him many emails back and forth, and he has been very nice to work with. 

 

[dsperber]

 
Quote:

Thanks for your help! Since I haven't had product in my hand, I am not clear enough about the process of the carlibration, ( I know the basic step, headphone setup and room setup, no need to explain)I have already known the the calibration is necessary for getting a good results but how about the folloing methods to get only a convincing results?
 
1. If a really need to have a theater sound stage or any sound stage, but no chance to visitor a theater,  I have a smaller room calibration first then I increase the reverb time,adjust EQ (I always do mixing as a sound engineer so I know how to do it) and other necessary adjustments until satisfaction?
 
2. Since I haven't seen the product, I simply think of just put 6 speakers in a proper position (eg +30 -30...) than I carefully adjust EQ, echo time and other necessary adjustments until I found that is the sound I want?
 
Please indicate which part I am wrong, it is because we only can do limited carlibration but I want unlimited carlibration to enjoy any of the sond stage through pre carlibration or EQ adjustment.
 
Thanks for help!

The real key ingredient in a "calibration" is to have the microphones inserted in your ears.  Then the sweep signals are sent by the Realiser calibration process to each speaker separately, in three complete passes (i.e. to each of the speakers for each of the passes).  First pass is with your head looking straight ahead at the center speaker, second pass is with your head looking to the left-front speaker, and third pass is with your head looking to the right-front speaker.
 
The sounds received by the binaural microphones (in each ear) from each separate speaker, from each of the three passes, are measured by the microphones and sent to the Realiser for use in the calibration computations.
 
When it's all done, what's been measured are really two things: (1) what are the room physical acoustic characteristics, including the electronics and speakers involved in producing the sound that was heard by the microphones, and (2) what are the characteristics of your own personal hearing mechanism, including your head, skull, body, bones, ear canals, etc., which influence how your ears/brain process sound as it arrives at your outer ear and is delivered internally.  The calibration microphones inserted into your ears, listening to the three separate sweeps through each of the speakers in the room, these are all the mechanisms by which the whole "sonic photograph" of the particular listening environment is captured, as heard by YOUR OWN EARS.
 
It must be performed "in person", no matter what the particular listening environment is, in order to get the true "sonic photograph" installed into the PRIR calibration file that when used for playback of any source material will be able to theoretically duplicate how that source material would have sounded TO YOUR EARS, had you played that source material through the very same electronics in the very same room.  There is no objective to "improve" anything.  The goal is to DUPLICATE the sound of that room, to your ears but listening through headphones, as if you were really in that room in that same centered chair, now listening to this new source material though the sound system and acoustics of that room.
 
As was already pointed out, just because the Egyptian theater is a "big theater" doesn't mean you'll enjoy listening to intimate source material through that PRIR, if you do go there and get a calibration made.  Personally, I have gone there myself and gotten a PRIR to come a way with, but I have NEVER actually used it.  I just don't enjoy the sound for watching/listening to HDTV in my bedroom.  Unfortunately, it's a big and empty theater when the calibrations are done, and the result is quite an echo... which honestly, is not really pleasant for most material.  Had the theater been full of people to absorb sound differently, I'm certain the resulting PRIR would have captured this radically different sound... as it was heard by the microphones in my ears while sitting front-row center of the balcony.  But as it was done, with an empty theater, the results simply are "interesting"... though to me not very useful.  Also, to be honest, the front-left/right speaker placement in that very old theater presents quite a narrow front soundfield.  It's interesting and unique, but it's a bit different from the typical speaker placement according to theoretical angles, and it sounds different.
 
Nevertheless, the job of the calibration process is to DUPLICATE the sound that the measurements are taken in... not to provide any "optimization" or "improvement".
 
While the Realiser is delivered with a "default" PRIR, this is not optimal for your ears.  It is simply something to kind of demonstrate the technology out-of-the-box.  But until you make your own PRIR (and HPEQ, for your own particular headphones as heard by your own ears), you will never be obtaining the optimal results that can be delivered by the Realiser.
 
AIX and Mi Casa are NOT provided as "default".  They are simply the most commonly visited audio studios here in LA that people have gone to, to get PRIR measurements using the superb listening room environments available at those studios.  In my opinion it is the AIX room in particular (and the PRIR I got from there) which is the best sounding to me, and therefore which I myself use 100% of the time to listen to ANYTHING through my headphones and Realiser.

 

[jiang1202]

Thank you so much for your detailed explaination. I am living in a small city in China, where it is very hard to find a good place to calibrate, although I am very interested in the product. That's way the calibration issue is the biggest one than others that will prevent me from buying the product or keep going.
 
If I decide to buy one, My plan is to use the defult emulation first and than do my personalization at home as well as my friends house. However I will never stop from searching a good place to get fullly personalised. (I know it might be very hard ) That't way I tried to look for some other possible solutions as I posted before, even the result is convicing, but it is better than nothing.
 
I know that using somebody else's profile will result a serious phase problem but I am still quite intrested in others.
 
My quesion is what is the format of the personalised file? Is it can be store in the computer (other than SD card) and send it to me? I knew it would be not suitable for me but just get "intrested on that" particular in the Egyptian theater or any other theater surrounding. AIX is also preferred as least I can have a comparison with my own. my email is john@koyo-anp.com
 
I also read the manuel of byerdynamic 5.1, which the set up process would be much simpler, I knew that byerdynamic 5.1 used everage personalized file but it still can reach a convincing results, would SVS be setup an everage file like byerdynamic 5.1  so that it can have a quick start by common? I konw SVS is superior to byerdynamic 5.1, if the first step is common files interested by basic customers and than personalized file for professionals, it might target more market. (I might be totally wrong~~hah but that's what am thinking)
 
 
I don't know whether there is a database or a database set up in the future for many people's personalization,  a new person who might want to have a quick start and do not have many chances to access a top studio may choose from the database until he found a one that have 90% suitble for him :
 
My point could be totally wrong~~ please indicate it to me, thanks many, if an alternative possitble solution can be provided, ( too hard to get a personalized file done in a top studio in my city) I will be no wait to buy one.

 

[bmoura]

Quote:

Thank you so much for your detailed explaination. I am living in a small city in China, where it is very hard to find a good place to calibrate, although I am very interested in the product. That's way the calibration issue is the biggest one than others that will prevent me from buying the product or keep going.
 
If I decide to buy one, My plan is to use the defult emulation first and than do my personalization at home as well as my friends house. However I will never stop from searching a good place to get fullly personalised. (I know it might be very hard ) That't way I tried to look for some other possible solutions as I posted before, even the result is convicing, but it is better than nothing.
 
I know that using somebody else's profile will result a serious phase problem but I am still quite intrested in others.
 
My quesion is what is the format of the personalised file? Is it can be store in the computer (other than SD card) and send it to me? I knew it would be not suitable for me but just get "intrested on that" particular in the Egyptian theater or any other theater surrounding. AIX is also preferred as least I can have a comparison with my own. my email is john@koyo-anp.com
 
I also read the manuel of byerdynamic 5.1, which the set up process would be much simpler, I knew that byerdynamic 5.1 used everage personalized file but it still can reach a convincing results, would SVS be setup an everage file like byerdynamic 5.1  so that it can have a quick start by common? I konw SVS is superior to byerdynamic 5.1, if the first step is common files interested by basic customers and than personalized file for professionals, it might target more market. (I might be totally wrong~~hah but that's what am thinking)
 
 
I don't know whether there is a database or a database set up in the future for many people's personalization,  a new person who might want to have a quick start and do not have many chances to access a top studio may choose from the database until he found a one that have 90% suitble for him :
 
My point could be totally wrong~~ please indicate it to me, thanks many, if an alternative possitble solution can be provided, ( too hard to get a personalized file done in a top studio in my city) I will be no wait to buy one.

Two things.  The default PRIR emulation file works OK for some people, not for others.  In my case, it works OK.
 
Second, the Beyer Dynamic 5.1 system works OK.  But, as you correctly point out, since it's an average file, it's nowhere near as effective as what can be done with the Realiser.  I heard both at the CanJam show in LA a few years back.  While the Beyer was acceptable, once I had the Smyth folks do an on the spot PRIR file for me, it was no contest.  The Realiser was the one to get - by far.  And I'm glad I did the comparison.  Worth the trip to CanJam, just for that !
 

 

[Erik Garci]

Quote:

I think a future version of the Realiser with a digital input like LPCM via HDMI would be the natural next step. 
 
-Ed

The latest Realiser comes with HDMI input/output, according to this thread:
 
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-product-alert/627053-smyth-realiser-a8-hdmi-audio-input.html
 
 

 

[dsperber]

I'm puzzled.  If the price increase (to $3600) is accurate, and the mention of HDMI input is accurate, the Smyth-Research web site certainly doesn't have any confirmation or "news" or announcement of this latest version of the A8.
 
Also, with HDMI input does that mean the input can be raw/still-encoded?  Or is it PCM/decoded?
 
I'm going to write to Lorr and ask for the official story.

 

[dsperber]

Just heard back from Lorr, who's given permission to post this information... though a bit in advance of true availability.
 
To be honest, my "serial #1" Realiser can't be hardware upgraded, so that's one of the consequences of being the "very first early adopter" of SVS.  It may be more costly to consider the HDMI upgrade than for others, who have more recently manufactured A8 hardware.
 
But really even more exciting to me is the "dual user" mode, which is implemented in firmware and DOES support all hardware including my own #0001 unit.  I've written to Lorr for more detail on this, but my guess is that the rear and front analog headphone outputs will be for users #1 and #2, respectively, though I don't know the answer for sure yet.  Also unknown is where the optical/digital headphone output gets assigned... is it just for user #1, or can it be designated for user #1 or #2 in settings?
 
Of course, if you really DO want to use dual-user mode, you're going to have to return to AIX with "your partner" and get a second PRIR produced for same.  And of course you'll need a second high-quality headphone/amp delivery path for the second person.  But just imagine the excitement of finally being able to SHARE this with a second person simultaneously, with OPTIMAL SVS PERFORMANCE!
 
Very exciting indeed.
 
EDIT: typo correction from Lorr; note below that the eligible serial numbers for hardware upgrade begin with AC09, not the AC9 as originally provided.
 
Also, further clarification:
 

1. In dual-user mode, user #1 uses the front or rear panel headphone jacks or the S/P-DIF.  User #2 uses output jacks 3 and 4 (which in single-user mode retain their usual function).
2. Yes, there's a new manual for the new firmware which will be posted when the firmware is.
    

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Darryl and Ed,

Since you both wrote me about this I will take the liberty of answering you together.

I was unaware of the gearslutz posting.  It is correct but in advance of availability and we don't put things on our web site until they are available.

But availability is imminent, a matter of days.  We have built the boxes and are doing final testing on the firmware.

HDMI has been added to the A8.  It's still the A8 because it is identical in every other respect:  same front panel, same analogue jacks on the rear panel, runs the same firmware.  Two jacks added, HDMI in and HDMI out.  F.Y.I, attached is a picture of the rear panel.

The price is now $3670 including the Stax SRS-2050 II.  The price increase reflects the added cost of the HDMI daughterboard.

There is only one A8.  All new production has HDMI.

Existing A8s with serial numbers beginning with AC09 are upgradeable to HDMI:  we can add the daughterboard and attach a new rear panel.  Earlier units do not have the necessary daughterboard connectors.  Upgrades will be done in the US and UK offices.  We do not have a price for that as yet but we will when we make the general announcement.

There are no Dolby or DTS decoders so the signal coming in on HDMI must be PCM.  It has become a common feature for players and preamps to decode and output multichannel PCM; consult the player manufacturers for information, but as examples the Oppo and PS3 can do this.

The HDMI out is really a "thru"; it simply sends out whatever came in, including any video.  So, for example, the signal can go through the Realiser and on to other audio equipment and/or a video display.

At the same time as the new hardware, new firmware is being released.  Note that this new firmware works with ALL Realisers all the way back to serial number 1.  It will be available at no charge.  Here are a few of the features in addition to HDMI support:

- Dual-user mode with independent PRIR, HPEQ, and head tracking.

- Presets can be saved to SD card.

- Automatic backup of all files to SD card.

- Microphone calibration and test procedure.

- Optional password protection.

You can feel free to post this information if you wish.  Again, it's not on our web site because we're not shipping just yet.  It is always folly to say exactly when "final testing" on firmware will be complete but it's days, not weeks.

Best,

Lorr

Lorr Kramer
Smyth Research
 

 

[TruBrew]

Very exciting news.

 

[dsperber]

Further information from Lorr, per a question by Ed:
 
----------------------------------------------------------------
 
Lorr, do the HDMI input and outputs completely bypass any analog <-> digital conversion phases?  So everything from the Raw PCM multichannel HDMI input to being processed by SVS DSP to the optical SPDIF output is digital.

-Ed
 
 
Reply from Lorr:
 
Yup.
 

 

[TruBrew]

Now lets just hope I can afford this. I put in my two weeks notice at work today. I won't be working for two years, until I finish nursing school. It may be this or the Crowson Transducers. I am not sure which one I rather.

 

[TruBrew]

I have a question, and I am hoping someone here can clear up my confusion. For the new HDMI input on the Realiser, can I plug the HDMI out of my receiver to it. I assume it decoded the DTS/DD and outputs it PCM over the HDMI out, correct me if I am wrong.
 
The second part is a problem I have been having for a while. I can not plug in my speakers. If I do then while using the Realiser, the speakers will also play, and that is very annoying, and defeats the whole point. I assume the audio over HDMI will be independent of the receivers volume control. what I mean is if I have HDMI from my receiver to the Realiser, if I mute the receivers volume, would the audio still go to the Realiser. I am using an Onkyo 708. 
 
 

 

[dsperber]

 
Quote:

I have a question, and I am hoping someone here can clear up my confusion. For the new HDMI input on the Realiser, can I plug the HDMI out of my receiver to it. I assume it decoded the DTS/DD and outputs it PCM over the HDMI out, correct me if I am wrong.

 
All we really know is that the new Realiser can accept (a) discrete previously decoded PCM multi-channel digital audio input via HDMI, or (b) discrete previously decoded multi-channel analog audio input via RCA input connectors 1-8.  If delivered digitally, the audio goes directly into the SVS processing.  If delivered analog, the audio first gets converted from analog-to-digital, and then on into the SVS processing. 
 
We also know that the HDMI input can also include video, as well as audio.  And whatever digital auido/video data is delivered to the HDMI input is simply "passed through" (completely untouched) to the HDMI output, exactly as received, for delivery to some next HDMI-capable device (e.g. another audio system with amp/speakers, or perhaps an HDTV for video).  This is either good or bad, depending on the downstream HDMI-capable device you have connected to the HDMI output of the Realiser, because it too needs to be able to accept discrete multi-channel PCM audio which is precisely what got fed to the HDMI input of the Realiser.
 
Now my own feeling is that this is much easier said than done, insofar as the HDMI setup is concerned.  I'm not sure all consumer-grade modestly priced AVR's can do what is needed here, and still accomplish what is desired for what now is a very complex HDMI-coupled setup of multiple devices with both audio and video involved. 
 
For example, with only one HDMI output from my Yamaha RX-V863 AVR, obviously the HDMI output from the Yamaha would theoretically go to the HDMI input of the Realiser, in order to feed the audio from each of the AVR's inputs to the Realiser for SVS processing of the multi-channel audio.  But that HDMI-delivered digital audio must be decoded first by the AVR, as happens today from its preamp analog outputs feeding the 1-8 analog inputs of the Realiser.  That is exactly what goes out the preamp outputs of my AVR... the discrete multi-channel decoded analog audio.  But my reading of the Yamaha user manual does not seem to provide a way to get this same discrete decoded multi-channel audio sent out over HDMI.
 
My reading of the user manual for the RX-V863 doesn't seem to indicate that it actually puts out audio over its HDMI output unless you configure it to "pass-through" HDMI input to the HDMI output.  In this configuration no decoding occurs in the AVR itself, but rather the audio arriving at the HDMI input is simply passed-through and sent out over the HDMI output.  Obviously this wouldn't provide the needed decoded PCM discrete multi-channel audio required to feed the Realiser.  There does NOT appear to be a way to use the AVR to decode the input audio, convert this to discrete multi-channel PCM and send it out over HDMI along with video.  But this is exactly what I would want and need, if I planned to use the Realiser's new HDMI input for audio.
 
Now maybe just somewhat more expensive and newer AVRs would do this, but it doesn't appear my RX-V863 is suitable.
 
 
There's one more very significant problem that complicates things even more, when HDMI connections (i.e. audio, video, handshaking, etc.) is involved.  And that concerns devices such as Motorola DVRs (from TWC here in LA).  The delivery of digital audio over HDMI from these boxes is governed by whether the receiving device for audio is capable of accepting DD5.1 or not.  If not, then only DD2.0 is delivered, not DD5.1.  And this information is derived from an HDMI handshake.
 
So, if there was an HDMI relay from DVR to AVR to Realiser to HDTV, exactly what would be the "answer" to the question asked by the DVR: CAN YOU ACCEPT DD5.1??  Who is answering the question... AVR?  Realiser?  HDTV?  Are these three devices all visible to the DVR, or only up to the Realiser?  Or only up to the AVR?  And what will the answer be?  If the HDTV is visible I'm sure the answer will be: NO, I CANNOT ACCEPT DD5.1, in which case the DVR will only send out DD2.0 which of course is not what you want.
 
Personally, I think this is going to be a horrifically complicated situation that Smyth has opened up for themselves, given that they've now stepped into the VIDEO world (at least for HDMI pass-through).  If you only were going to use the Realiser BETWEEN A BLURAY PLAYER AND THE AVR, well maybe that very limited situation could be configured properly (if you had an Oppo player that could deliver decoded PCM multi-channel audio as well as video over HDMI).  But that would prevent the Realiser from being used in the other situations it currently is used for, namely to provide SVS sound for all inputs to the AVR, while watching HDTV for video... something that is possible specifically because of the use of 1-8 analog connections and the preamp analog outputs from an AVR.
 
I think this Realiser/HDMI story is going to be very very complicated, and have many horror stories, and possible setup compromises.

 

[dsperber]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruBrew /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The second part is a problem I have been having for a while. I can not plug in my speakers. If I do then while using the Realiser, the speakers will also play, and that is very annoying, and defeats the whole point. I assume the audio over HDMI will be independent of the receivers volume control. what I mean is if I have HDMI from my receiver to the Realiser, if I mute the receivers volume, would the audio still go to the Realiser. I am using an Onkyo 708. 
 

Please describe your desired wiring schematic.  I'm puzzled.  Where is that you "can not plug in my speakers"... to the 1-8 outputs of the Realiser, feeding some external audio system that accepts 1-8 analog inputs?
 
I believe the PASS button on the Realiser's remote toggles the 1-8 outputs vs. the headphone output, so that you can suppress speakers (fed from the Realiser's 1-8 outputs to your external audio system) when you are listening through headphones, or can activate the 1-8 output if you do want to listen through your external speakers.
 
As far as your AVR's volume/mute control, in the case of my Yamaha RX-V863, the AVR's volume/mute controls both its out amp/speaker outputs, as well as the 1-8 preamp analog outputs which I currently feed to the 1-8 inputs of my Realiser.  If I actually did have an equivalent HDMI output option, I would imagine it would work exactly the same way, and that the volume/mute control for the AVR would influence the audio output going out over HDMI.  If you muted the AVR, you would have no HDMI audio (going to the Realiser) either.

 

[TruBrew]

I need to find out if the Onkyo 708 outputs audio, specifically PCM, out of the HDMI. If it doesn't, I am not sure what I will do. Why can't things be simple. Even if it doesn't work, I know they PS3 can output decoded digital audio, and if I am lucky so will the xbox and my mac mini. If they do then I am good to go. I run all of my gear to a DVDO edge, and I could put that in line before the Onkyo receiver. Of course that will only work if all the components can do their own decoding, and my Onkyo can't.

 

[TruBrew]

I am not using the Realisers 8 channel outputs because I have no where to send them. The receiver has speakers plugged into the speaker outs, and the realiser plugged into the pre outs. Both play simultaneously and both are controlled by the same volume. I have no way of muting the speakers while maintaining audio to the realiser. That is why I was going to have a custom box built that would let me break the connection to all of the speakers. The HDMI inputs I think would fix the problem. It would send line level audio to the realiser, and leave receiver's volume control for the speakers.
 
I am not worried I may have the same HDMI audio output problem as you. I looked through the manual but could not find anything. I am going to try and email tech support and see if they can give me an answer. 
 
Quote:

Please describe your desired wiring schematic.  I'm puzzled.  Where is that you "can not plug in my speakers"... to the 1-8 outputs of the Realiser, feeding some external audio system that accepts 1-8 analog inputs?
 
I believe the PASS button on the Realiser's remote toggles the 1-8 outputs vs. the headphone output, so that you can suppress speakers (fed from the Realiser's 1-8 outputs to your external audio system) when you are listening through headphones, or can activate the 1-8 output if you do want to listen through your external speakers.
 
As far as your AVR's volume/mute control, in the case of my Yamaha RX-V863, the AVR's volume/mute controls both its out amp/speaker outputs, as well as the 1-8 preamp analog outputs which I currently feed to the 1-8 inputs of my Realiser.  If I actually did have an equivalent HDMI output option, I would imagine it would work exactly the same way, and that the volume/mute control for the AVR would influence the audio output going out over HDMI.  If you muted the AVR, you would have no HDMI audio (going to the Realiser) either.