[dsperber]

Quote:

I am not using the Realisers 8 channel outputs because I have no where to send them. The receiver has speakers plugged into the speaker outs, and the realiser plugged into the pre outs. Both play simultaneously and both are controlled by the same volume. I have no way of muting the speakers while maintaining audio to the realiser. That is why I was going to have a custom box built that would let me break the connection to all of the speakers.
 
The HDMI inputs I think would fix the problem. It would send line level audio to the realiser, and leave receiver's volume control for the speakers.

I see.
 
But I really have no idea whether if the correct PCM HDMI audio were indeed possible from your AVR, that the HDMI path would be separate from the volume/mute control of the AVR, and simply be "line-level" audio and totally NOT controlled by volume/mute.

As you've also discovered by not finding an answer in your Onkyo manual, I expect these "low-end" AVRs simply do not have the ability to both (a) decode source multi-channel input, and (b) send it out as discrete PCM over HDMI.  They can do it over analog preamp outputs, but not in digital over HDMI (along with source video).
 
But I suspect that newer, more expensive AVR/processors might be able to do this.  Or, perhaps pure high-end audio-related preamps or processors would do that, but consumer-grade AVRs not.
 
 
I agree that HDMI input/output is a neat idea, but if it simply can't work for an ordinary non-pro home user wanting t use an ordinary AVR with multiple HDMI sources, an HDTV via HDMI for viewing, and the Realiser for SVS audio (fed by analog preamp outputs from the AVR), then I just will not consider the upgrade.  I honestly have no complaints with the SVS audio my current setup provides to my headphones... and it works perfectly, albeit using 1-8 analog connections.

 

[bmoura]

Interesting. Unfortunately my Realiser was an earlier model - starting with AC06 - so I'll have to pass on the HDMI upgrade.

 

[sillysally]

With the Oppo BD-95 and its 2 HDMI ports, you can use one for HDMI audio out and one for HDMI video out.
The audio out will be LPCM and decoded, up to 7.1 192/24. However you should disable any secondary audio tracks.
 
Now the question is will the SQ improve using a HDMI port over using the analog 7.1 outs from the Oppo BD-95.
 
If you use the HDMI audio port option then you will get a LPCM digital stream that is encoded. So if that is the case then hopefully the Realiser will bypass the A to D conversion, do its magic in the digital format and if you are using a DAC between your Realiser and Headphone Amp via optical out of the Realiser the outboard DAC would do the D to A conversion. There by doing just one D to A conversion.

 

[dsperber]

 
Quote:

With the Oppo BD-95 and its 2 HDMI ports, you can use one for HDMI audio out and one for HDMI video out.
The audio out will be LPCM and decoded, up to 7.1 192/24. However you should disable any secondary audio tracks.
 
Now the question is will the SQ improve using a HDMI port over using the analog 7.1 outs from the Oppo BD-95.
 
If you use the HDMI audio port option then you will get a LPCM digital stream that is encoded. So if that is the case then hopefully the Realiser will bypass the A to D conversion, do its magic in the digital format and if you are using a DAC between your Realiser and Headphone Amp via optical out of the Realiser the outboard DAC would do the D to A conversion. There by doing just one D to A conversion.

As was confirmed by Lorr, the use of the HDMI digital input to the Realiser avoids the need for a A-to-D conversion by the Realiser, as is the case when the 1-8 analog inputs are used.  SVS can begin its work on the discrete multi-channel digital input directly, and the A-to-D stage of the Realiser is completely bypassed.
 
Also, if you use the optical output and an external DAC, that's already known to bypass the D-to-A conversion in the Realiser for the SVS output to the headphones, deferring that function to the presumably superior outboard DAC.  So again, the D-to-A stage of the Realiser's SVS processed L/R-stereo output is bypassed, just as it already is if you use the optical output.
 
But the real issue is that if you allocate the Realiser to be fed from a single source device (like the Oppo player) which is fortunately designed to be able to produce the decoded discrete multi-channel digital audio output to HDMI in order to feed the HDMI input of the realiser, then you lose the ability to conveniently use the Realiser for any other source device (e.g. a cable system DVR) that also produces multi-channel audio that you'd also like to feed to the Realiser so that you can listen to that other device's audio via SVS through headphones.
 
In other words, the most common-sense arrangement would be to feed the HDMI output of an AVR to the HDMI input of the Realiser, and then send the HDMI output of the Realiser to an HDTV (just to pass the video to the HDTV, since the audio is going to your headphones).  This allows the Realiser to be used to process the digital sound portion of ANY multi-channel digital audio/video source that goes into the AVR via HDMI, by using the HDMI output of the AVR.  But this is precisely why there is a new problem, because the AVR itself may not be able to provide the needed decoded discrete channel PCM audio + video via HDMI, required by both the Realiser and also the HDTV... for any source to the AVR.

 

[sillysally]

Quote:

 

As was confirmed by Lorr, the use of the HDMI digital input to the Realiser avoids the need for a A-to-D conversion by the Realiser, as is the case when the 1-8 analog inputs are used.  SVS can begin its work on the discrete multi-channel digital input directly, and the A-to-D stage of the Realiser is completely bypassed.
 
Also, if you use the optical output and an external DAC, that's already known to bypass the D-to-A conversion in the Realiser for the SVS output to the headphones, deferring that function to the presumably superior outboard DAC.  So again, the D-to-A stage of the Realiser's SVS processed L/R-stereo output is bypassed, just as it already is if you use the optical output.
 
But the real issue is that if you allocate the Realiser to be fed from a single source device (like the Oppo player) which is fortunately designed to be able to produce the decoded discrete multi-channel digital audio output to HDMI in order to feed the HDMI input of the realiser, then you lose the ability to conveniently use the Realiser for any other source device (e.g. a cable system DVR) that also produces multi-channel audio that you'd also like to feed to the Realiser so that you can listen to that other device's audio via SVS through headphones.
 
In other words, the most common-sense arrangement would be to feed the HDMI output of an AVR to the HDMI input of the Realiser, and then send the HDMI output of the Realiser to an HDTV (just to pass the video to the HDTV, since the audio is going to your headphones).  This allows the Realiser to be used to process the digital sound portion of ANY multi-channel digital audio/video source that goes into the AVR via HDMI, by using the HDMI output of the AVR.  But this is precisely why there is a new problem, because the AVR itself may not be able to provide the needed decoded discrete channel PCM audio + video via HDMI, required by both the Realiser and also the HDTV... for any source to the AVR.

Yes it remains to be know how the HDMI in/out ports of the Realiser will work with what you want it to do. In my case there is NP and the Oppo does also handle at-least four online streaming networks.
 
Because of the Oppo's great DAC's (Sabre 32 ES9018) and the Realiser' s neutral dac and the same for my DAC19, I don't really know or think there will be much improvement in the AQ.
 
Yes I would get the upgrade HDMI package for my Realiser if I can do the upgrade myself at home, otherwise I think I will pass on the upgrade.

 

[tamahome77]

Looks like it'll cost $300 to take your own PRIR measurements from the two 5.1 and one 7.1 system at AIX studio plus an additional $200 service fee from smyth research.  Anyone have any regrets taking their own measurements from there? 

 

[Trasselkalle]

Two points:
 
1) I really wish there was a stripped down (and thus cheaper) version that only accepted digital in, did it's magic (and allowed some basic PEQ possibly) without any conversion to analog, then passed on the result to the digital out so any DAC and Amp could be used. I understand that there is the option to do this already, but I believe many would prefer to stick with the setup they have already rather than pay additional money for stuff they won't be using. It also always sucks to get stuck with something that breaks or gets outdated, and it is so much more convenient to send one box for upgrading/repairs than the whole system. I'm sure more ppl than me have other things they'd rather do with that money rather than stick it into stuff without the flexibility of a multi-box solution. This is assuming there are more ppl like myself who wouldn't mind the Smyth for video and console gaming primarily and most likely just bypass the Smyth for music.
 
2) In regards to console gaming and the PCM - I always thought the game manufacturers developed for 5.1 (or 7.1 more likely in the future) and that the digital PCM out was crap? When I say this, I mean in terms of actually hearing the exact right types of sounds (footsteps in the right locations and at enough volume - usually higher volume for 'soundwhoring' while playing), rather than necessarily be fully 'realistic'. Gamers are after an edge compared with others - not just realism. I may be off speculating here (and please correct this if I am), but the HDMI in/out sounds more like something for a movie scenario than a gaming one (aside from getting rid of a cable, which is always nice). That's really too bad, as having the headtracker to help more clearly figure out if a sound comes from a particular direction by turning the head just right would take the edge gained to new levels if combined with the actual implementation used by game developers. Your sound system would effectively become a part of your control for the game in that way (although supporting one-way communication from the game to you only).
 
Edit: Spelling.

 

[jgazal]

x2! Stereo only.
 
Quote:

(...)
 
1) I really wish there was a stripped down (and thus cheaper) version that only accepted digital in, did it's magic (and allowed some basic PEQ possibly) without any conversion to analog, then passed on the result to the digital out so any DAC and Amp could be used. I understand that there is the option to do this already, but I believe many would prefer to stick with the setup they have already rather than pay additional money for stuff they won't be using. It also always sucks to get stuck with something that breaks or gets outdated, and it is so much more convenient to send one box for upgrading/repairs than the whole system. I'm sure more ppl than me have other things they'd rather do with that money rather than stick it into stuff without the flexibility of a multi-box solution. This is assuming there are more ppl like myself who wouldn't mind the Smyth for video and console gaming primarily and most likely just bypass the Smyth for music.
 
(...)
 

 

 

[TruBrew]

Tell me what you guys think. I emailed Onkyo to ask them if the 708 outputs decoded digital audio over HDMI. I think the answer is yes, but the reply I got did not make me feel 100% confident. 
 
Me: I can't find the answer to this in the manual. What type of audio is output from the HDMI out. If DD/DTS goes in, does it passthrough, or does it sent out decoded multi-channel PCM?
 
Onkyo: It will decode the source going in whether it be DD or DTS but the source device must be set to send that signal over.
 
Me: I am sorry, that does not exactly answer my question. I know it will decode DD/DTS. I want to know if it outputs that decoded signal over HDMI.
 
Onkyo: Yes it will output these formats over HDMI.
 
 

 

[tamahome77]

CanMad, I'm having a problem similar to yours.  Tried to perform a HPEQ measurement and received "gain too low" on both channels.  Tried out the HPEQ with some music and discover that most of the music was coming from one side of the headphones and the other side a bad hollow echoey sound.  The "mic clip" light didnt' even come on when HPEQ measurement was in progress, so I suspect that there maybe a connection problem from the mics all the way to the mic input.  Tried it a few more times, no go.  Tried it again, holding the plug from one of the mics and the plug from the extension cable and gently wiggling it abit during HPEQ in progress....got the "mic clip" light to illuminate.  One channel checked okay and the other was "channel swapped".  Tried it again without holding the plugs, the "mic clip" light didn't come on and both channel "gain too low". 
 
Did your new set of mics resolved your issues? 
 
I've fired an email to Lorr today and am still waiting for the procedure to test out the mic.

 
Quote:

I have just received my realizer and I have encountered a number of issues that I am hoping some of the experienced realizer users can help me with.

When I did my first calibration I only only heard a chirp through the left speaker and the realizer turned off all my speakers. I worked out this seemed to be caused by not enough volume on my av amp (Pioneer vsx-lx70). To get the test chirps to sound through all channels and sub I had to turn the volume up to +9. I normally listen at between -20 and -30 db, and the amp only goes up to +12. Does this seem excessive, that I have to turn the amp up this loud to get an acceptable calibration? Is there a way to increase the output level on the realizer? When I have the volume set to +9 I get an OK on the left channel and a hi on all other channels.

I then did a PRIR and it sounded awful. The sound was mostly coming from the right hand side with a bad echo from the left and no sound from the front i.e. Centre. The default PRIR sounds way better. I had my wife position the microphones, so I think they were OK to at least get an OK measurement but it is awful.

I then did an HPEQ measurement. At first using my Grado RS1s plugged into my Benchmark DAC1 headphone output. I had to crank the volume up to 2 o'clock to get an acceptable measurement at which point the realizer displays a message saying right channel OK but for the left channel it says "channel switched". Again it seems I am having to turn the volume up far too high to get a measurement. Listening to music on the DAC1 at 2 o'clock would be ear bleedingly loud. Because of the channel switched message I tried doing a headphone eq from the realizer headphone out, it was unable to get a reading i.e. The volume was too low. This doesn't seem correct to me, at 32 ohm the Grados should be able to be driven by the realizer to adequate volume, shouldn't they?

So does anyone have any suggestions? Are the extreme levels of gain I have to use normal when taking measurements? What does the channel switched message mean? Why can't the realizer headphone out drive the Grados? Does it sound like the microphones or the realizer is defective in some way? Is incorrect microphone placement the cause for all or some of the problems including the terrible sound PRIR I recorded?

Sorry for all the questions but I really am feeling quite disappointed at the moment.

I am also finding the placement of the microphones quite difficult and basically impossible to do myself the yellow foam plugs just seem too short to hold the microphone in my ear. Using the medium foams they feel loose, using the large foams they are impossible to insert. I have been using etymotic er4's for 8 years so I am very experienced at inserting plugs in my ears.

Thanks in advance for any and all help received.

 

 

[CanMad]

CanMad, I'm having a problem similar to yours.  Tried to perform a HPEQ measurement and received "gain too low" on both channels.  Tried out the HPEQ with some music and discover that most of the music was coming from one side of the headphones and the other side a bad hollow echoey sound.  The "mic clip" light didnt' even come on when HPEQ measurement was in progress, so I suspect that there maybe a connection problem from the mics all the way to the mic input.  Tried it a few more times, no go.  Tried it again, holding the plug from one of the mics and the plug from the extension cable and gently wiggling it abit during HPEQ in progress....got the "mic clip" light to illuminate.  One channel checked okay and the other was "channel swapped".  Tried it again without holding the plugs, the "mic clip" light didn't come on and both channel "gain too low". 
 
Did your new set of mics resolved your issues? 
 
I've fired an email to Lorr today and am still waiting for the procedure to test out the mic.

 


 

Yes the new mics fixed all my issues. It works brilliantly now. Lorr will probably tell you the test procedure to check that the mics are working, as there are other reasons you could be having this issue. Have you got the gain set to at least 0db i.e. No attenuation on your av amp?

 

[tamahome77]

I'm just using my dac to the realiser to an external headphone amp.  Just tested the the mic using the procedure that connects the mics input to the headphone output,  As suspected, one of the mic is indeed broken.  I will need to ask them to send a replacement.  Hopefully, it's not too expensive.  I'll post the procedure below that might be of some use to others.
 
 
 
Quote:

 

You have probably been careful about this, but two things always to look at are:

1.  The correct mic must be in the correct ear (left in left, right in right) as identified on the Y-connector.

2.  All the plugs into the Y-connector and into the front panel mic jack must be all the way in.  It sometimes takes a bit of force to get them all the way in.

If either of the above is wrong, you will get results similar to what you describe.

If the above has been followed correctly, then either a mic, or the Y-junction, or a cable is bad.  It would be extremely unlikely that more than one item is faulty so we need to establish where the problem is.

If you are using the firmware of 7 June 2010, there is a diagnostic that is not in the manual.  It can result in very high sound level in the headphones which cannot be reduced with the Realiser volume control.  If you are using an external amplifier, turn it all the way down, and then up slightly.  If you are not using an external amplifier, be especially careful.  Use this method at your own risk.  There is new firmware about to be released that has better and safer diagnostic tools, but I'm sure you want to proceed right away.

If you press MENU and then PASS, the microphone inputs will be connected to the headphone outputs.  Press PASS again to end this connection, and PASS yet again to return to headphone mode.  Touch the mics carefully because of the high level, but wearing headphones you will be able to tell if one works and the other does not, and if they are different.  Then swap them in the Y-connector and it should become apparent whether one mic remains the bad one, or whether one side of the Y or the main mic cable is bad.

Note that the same key, PASS, starts and ends the operation and if you hold the key down too long, it will start and end it immediatlely and nothing will happen.  So just touch the key briefly to start and end.
 

 

 

[tamahome77]

Edit: nvm, Free of charge under warranty as long as it's not caused by abuse.

 
CanMad, were your mics replacement free of charge under warranty if there is one?  

 
Quote:

Yes the new mics fixed all my issues. It works brilliantly now. Lorr will probably tell you the test procedure to check that the mics are working, as there are other reasons you could be having this issue. Have you got the gain set to at least 0db i.e. No attenuation on your av amp?

 

 

[sillysally]

New Firmware has been posted.
http://www.smyth-research.com/dload.html
 

Current Firmware: 21 July 2011 Features and changes in firmware of 21 July 2011 The following are the most significant changes. Not all refinements are listed. New features: 1. HDMI support. 2. Dual-user mode with independent PRIR, HPEQ, and head tracking. 3. Preset saving to SD card. 4. Automatic backup of all files to SD card. 5. Linear taper can be applied to PRIR with user-definable start and end points. 6. Microphone calibration and test procedure. 7. Optional password protection. 8. Headphone limiter threshold and release controls. 9. For optional meter bridge, phase meter adaptation rate control.

 

 

[sillysally]

I have shipped my Realiser back to Lorr to have the HDMI upgrade done.
 
I should have it back by this weekend, so I will report back on my views using the digital HDMI in port and thereby bypassing the Realiser's A/D conversion,  letting my AGD DAC19 (pcm 1704uk) DSP1v5 do the D/A conversion.