LCD-2 and LCD-3 Owners - which aftermarket cable do you use?
Apr 15, 2012 at 3:37 PM Post #2,341 of 2,398
Everyone uses buzzwords. I think the issue with buzzwords is their ability to mislead when used incorrectly.
 
EDIT: Don't take this as an attack on anyone in particular. I'm just saying it's a general problem. Not saying anyone is misleading people here.
 
Quote:
So is Toxic Cables misleading people, using nice buzzwords, misinformed himself?....People do seem to enjoy his cables.



 
 
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 3:38 PM Post #2,342 of 2,398

 
Quote:
So is Toxic Cables misleading people, using nice buzzwords, misinformed himself?....People do seem to enjoy his cables.


 
 
Misleading people, i don't think so. I use descriptions from my suppliers who i get the wire from, one of which is Wun Lung, better known as Neotech Cable who are one of the largest OCC manufacturers and i have my new batch of 26awg copper coming from them. If i am misleading people then so are 99% of the other people selling UP-OCC wire because all use the same description.
 
I'm here to make cables, i have different cables manufactured to my specs until i find one that i like the sound of and that is what i sell. To me the sound is all that matters and i have not yet had a single complaint from the 300+ cables i have sold in the last 5months since i came on to the scene.
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 3:46 PM Post #2,343 of 2,398

 
Quote:
So is Toxic Cables misleading people, using nice buzzwords, misinformed himself?....People do seem to enjoy his cables.

The entire audio world is sadly misinformed by buzzworditis.  Toxic isn't any worse than a bunch of others.  What matters is how the final product sounds and how well it's constructed and therefor how well it holds up.  The rest of the aesthetics, comfort, flexibility, etc. are in the ear of the beholder.  If you like it, it's good, no need to invent BS to explain it.  My 2₵.
 
 
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 3:47 PM Post #2,344 of 2,398

 
Quote:
Everyone uses buzzwords. I think the issue with buzzwords is their ability to mislead when used incorrectly.
 
EDIT: Don't take this as an attack on anyone in particular. I'm just saying it's a general problem. Not saying anyone is misleading people here.
 


 
 



I guess that's more what I was trying to allude to. Did not want to imply an insult.


Quote:
 
Misleading people, i don't think so. I use descriptions from my suppliers who i get the wire from, one of which is Wun Lung, better known as Neotech Cable who are one of the largest OCC manufacturers and i have my new batch of 26awg copper coming from them. If i am misleading people then so are 99% of the other people selling UP-OCC wire because all use the same description.
 
I'm here to make cables, i have different cables manufactured to my specs until i find one that i like the sound of and that is what i sell. To me the sound is all that matters and i have not yet had a single complaint from the 300+ cables i have sold in the last 5months since i came on to the scene.


Again sorry to stir your emotions. I know people really enjoy your cables, no doubt about that. I may have just used the wrong wording. To me these buzzwords imply a lack of transparency I just wanted to know if you're up-selling or perhaps being deceiving. I guess I need to just familiarize myself with the rest of the industry that does that same thing you do?
 
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 3:55 PM Post #2,345 of 2,398

 
Quote:
I guess that's more what I was trying to allude to. Did not want to imply an insult.

Again sorry to stir your emotions. I know people really enjoy your cables, no doubt about that. I may have just used the wrong wording. To me these buzzwords imply a lack of transparency I just wanted to know if you're up-selling or perhaps being deceiving. I guess I need to just familiarize myself with the rest of the industry that does that same thing you do?
 


For me, it works best to ignore the buzz and evaluate the product on how it sounds and its esthetic match to my own sensibilities.  Example, I've heard great sounding cables that are very massive and inflexible, but well constructed.  I've also heard great sounding cables that seem to be built very well even though they're very flexible and lightweight.  That esthetic appeals to my taste for a headphone cable more than the massive alternatives.  That's my personal preference and has no bearing on what others' personal preferences may be.
 
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 3:59 PM Post #2,346 of 2,398


Quote:
I guess that's more what I was trying to allude to. Did not want to imply an insult.

Again sorry to stir your emotions. I know people really enjoy your cables, no doubt about that. I may have just used the wrong wording. To me these buzzwords imply a lack of transparency I just wanted to know if you're up-selling or perhaps being deceiving. I guess I need to just familiarize myself with the rest of the industry that does that same thing you do?
 

 
I have no reason to up-sell or deceive people, i like to think that my cables speak for themselves.
 
As i have already stated, my description is from my supplier, if i were to be misleading people then i would be using a description other then the one given to me by my supplier.
Just go on google and search for Unidirectional UP-OCC and see all the familiar names show up.
 
https://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=unidirectional+up-occ&oq=unidirectional+up-occ&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.3...733507l735518l2l736107l2l2l0l0l0l0l152l220l1j1l2l0.frgbld.&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=37b244dfe41e981b&biw=1360&bih=667
 
 
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 4:12 PM Post #2,347 of 2,398


Quote:
Like i have said, i use the same description used by my supplier who i get the wire from. Go on Google and do a search for Unidirectional UP OCC and you will see all the big names show up.
 
up-selling, have you seen my prices.
 



Ok, I may have issues with lack of transparency (It seems like a phantom problem at that) I'd want to associate with straight shooters..no mumbo jumbo aka buzzwords. . You use BS buzzwords. Ok, that's fine, If I was into Silver cables I'd give you business. Your cables are revered and are awesome looking. My initial post had nothing to do with your products actual performance.
Just my simple curiosity about whether or not you were A. Misleading B. Using buzzwords. C. Uninformed yourself 
 
And by up-selling I wasn't talking about money....
 
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 4:24 PM Post #2,349 of 2,398


Quote:
Ok, I may have issues with lack of transparency (It seems like a phantom problem at that) I'd want to associate with straight shooters..no mumbo jumbo aka buzzwords. . You use BS buzzwords. Ok, that's fine, If I was into Silver cables I'd give you business. Your cables are revered and are awesome looking. My initial post had nothing to do with your products actual performance.
Just my simple curiosity about whether or not you were A. Misleading B. Using buzzwords. C. Uninformed yourself 
 
And by up-selling I wasn't talking about money....
 


I am neither misleading, uninformed or using buzzwords and i think any further replies to yourself is pointless.
 
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 4:30 PM Post #2,350 of 2,398
Thanks for clearing that up
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 5:06 PM Post #2,351 of 2,398


Quote:
That should be in our permanent collection of smily's.
 

 
Yeah, love that one. Stole it from diyAudio.
biggrin.gif

 
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Apr 15, 2012 at 5:08 PM Post #2,352 of 2,398


Quote:
 
Don't forget, the signal has to return from whence it came in order to be drawn to its destination in the first place.
 

 
Well, the current has to return. But as I said, the signal proper is the TEM wave that propagates down the cable. It's initiated at the source and terminates at the load. Any of that coming back would be a reflection, which can be problematic in high frequency lines, but not a problem at audio frequencies as the electrical wavelengths are too long to have anything resembling a reflection in the line.
 
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Apr 15, 2012 at 5:12 PM Post #2,353 of 2,398
Wow, away for a few minutes and it seems personal attacks are taking place! Frank is just about the most stand up guy I have dealt with with audio related matters, up there with Ray Samuels. He has always been really clear on what he provides and is not pulling the wool over anyones eyes! He is doing what all the other cable makers here do which is to tell us what the cables are made of. I have now twice dealt with Frank and will do so again and again as his prices are great and cable very very well made and sounds great, especially in comparison to some much more expensive cables that I have seen both on headfi and other forums.

Frank has repeatedly stated that he got his description from his supplier, when we all see something be it on ebay or somewhere else we all use the same for the item provided by the manufacturer and that is what Frank has done here and even went as far as to name one of his suppliers and provide a link to that supplier where he got the description from so i do not think frank is mis leading anyone.

I have not seen any other cable manufactures do that!
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 5:21 PM Post #2,354 of 2,398
To add.
Here are 3 of the most well known cable manufacturers on head-fi using the exact same description as Frank so why is anyone not questioning this??

I found these with the links Frank provided in his posts.

http://www.32ohmaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=63_66_80&products_id=348

http://www.whiplashproaudio.com/whiplash-hd800-replacement-cable.html

]http://cryo-parts.com/index.php/hook-up-wire/cryoparts/scscag-wire
 
Apr 15, 2012 at 6:33 PM Post #2,355 of 2,398
Okay, I'm sick of this crap.  The direction this thread is going in is pissing me off, and I'm going to catch flak for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway:  Whoopdee-doo.  Frank's using marketing buzzwords.  So are ALO/32ohm, Whiplash, Cryoparts, <InsertAftermarketCableManufacturerNameHere> etc. etc. ad nauseum ad infinitum.  A large majority of people selling aftermarket cables are doing this.  That's what marketing is.  I don't see anybody complaining about "1,000,000:1" and "Infinity" contrast ratios in TVs.  That's all bullsh*t, and so is this.  This isn't any different.  Bottom line, buzzwords and aggressive marketing make bank.
 
That said, however: The wire may be "rectangular", but in my estimation I doubt that has any impact on the sound quality.  The wire may be "OCC", but in my estimation I doubt that has any impact on the sound quality.  In my estimation, silver probably doesn't do anything different from copper.  In my opinion, I doubt anybody can hear a difference between "6N" and "7N".  Though the marketingspeak may ultimately be true with regards to the wire composition/shape/topology/etc., in my honest opinion it probably has little meaningful bearing on applicability in the real world.  If you told me you could hear the difference between "rectangular" and "round" wire, or between "6N" and "7N" silver, the only result would be that I would probably never take anything you had to say seriously ever again.  So, then, why even include this information?
 
Simple: Because marketing sells.  It sounds smart and cool and hip.  It makes it seem like one product is better or more awesome than another.  Sure, some may consider it "psychological manipulation", others may consider it "deceptive marketing" or what have you, but at the end of the day, it sells stuff.  And that's what's important to businesses.  Selling stuff and making the epic cash moneys.
 
However, within this exist two slightly more subtle points, which are worthy of your consideration:
1.) Don't take their word for it.  This stuff shouldn't be taken at face value.  Subject this stuff to scrutiny and hold them accountable.  Not necessarily scientific scrutiny, but at the very least, employ some reason and logic in your thought process.  If somebody sells me a cable that's made of 7N silver, I had damn well better be able to cut that cable open, send that silver to a lab, and have the lab tell me it's 7N.  If it's anything less than 7N, that means I was lied to.  If you made my cable and wrote on your website that the cable uses 7N silver, the "burden of proof" rests with you.  Don't try to shift blame to the guy who supplied your silver.  He might've duped you, but you duped me too.  So don't think you can vindicate yourself by playing the age-old finger-pointing game.  It won't work.  If you don't know what they're selling you, that means you don't know what you're buying, and you didn't do your due diligence in researching, and that's your damn job.  I shouldn't *have to* send my wire to a lab.  You should've done that long before you sold it to me.  If you admit you don't know, then I have a iota more of respect for you, but you still screwed up big.  The same goes for causation.  If you tell me that "OCC" results in better sound quality, then you need to prove it.  If your cable is better, prove it.  Tell me why I should part with my hard-earned money.  Give me a reason I can relate to.
If you're the consumer, it's your money.  Know what you're buying.  You have two options: Buy blindly, or research and buy.  Make the right choice.  Turning a blind eye is equivalent to enabling this sort of thing to go on.  The industry thrives on this sort of apathy.
2.) Just because "everybody" does it doesn't make it right.  If you want, you can give me a mile-long list of companies that use buzzword marketing.  Guess what I'm going to do?  I'm going to go find companies that *don't* use buzzword marketing.  Why?  Because they're not treating me, the customer, like I'm some kind of an idiot, like a guy who'll get that sparkle in my eye when I read that the wire is "OCC".  Instead, I'll read "OCC" and ask, "What does that mean to me?".  The guy who's honest when he's selling me a cable, and regards me as an informed consumer, the guy who respects the sanctity of what matters in the real world, is the guy I'd rather give my money to.  That guy has his head screwed on straight, while the rest of the charlatans flap their gaping maws and try to pull me in with their gimmicks.  I don't want gimmicks, I want something tangible for my money.  I want to be sold a good product, not a bunch of words.  Words are wind.

Go ahead and flame me.  Tell me I'm wrong.  I'm ready for you.
 

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