Laiv Harmony µDAC, Discrete Balanced R-2R DAC

[JackJohnson316]

FYI I asked Laiv if the uDac usb input connector requires the 5v signal and they confirmed it does not. So you can potentially use a usb cable that doesn’t have the 5v conductor, or in my case the Jcat usb XE Evo card and remove the 5v jumper. Should potentially provide a sound quality uptick removing the usb 5v signal. I’ll test it and compare with and without the 5v signal next week when I get the chance.

Update: I could not get my streamer to recognize the Udac without the 5v input. I'll play around with a few more options, but it's probably not going to work. With my old SOTM sms-200 ultra neo I could connect to the SOTM tx-usb without the 5v signal, so I know that it's possible with some devices, but in this case I cannot get my streamer to talk to the Udac without the 5v pin. It could be that Laiv misunderstood my question and thought that I was asking if the Udac will work without a 5v input powering the unit, as it is powered through the external dc input. Not sure, but if I could get it to connect without the 5v input that would be a bonus. I've actually seen usb cables that allow you to connect with the 5v conductor, and then disconnect only the 5v conductor once the dac is recognized by the streamer. I would be worried that would cause an electrical arc though by disconnected a 5v conductor when in use.

 

[OhmsClaw]

Update: I could not get my streamer to recognize the Udac without the 5v input. I'll play around with a few more options, but it's probably not going to work. With my old SOTM sms-200 ultra neo I could connect to the SOTM tx-usb without the 5v signal, so I know that it's possible with some devices, but in this case I cannot get my streamer to talk to the Udac without the 5v pin. It could be that Laiv misunderstood my question and thought that I was asking if the Udac will work without a 5v input powering the unit, as it is powered through the external dc input. Not sure, but if I could get it to connect without the 5v input that would be a bonus. I've actually seen usb cables that allow you to connect with the 5v conductor, and then disconnect only the 5v conductor once the dac is recognized by the streamer. I would be worried that would cause an electrical arc though by disconnected a 5v conductor when in use.

I told you
There's USB 5v isolators and separate data/power cables out there.

 

[rafalc]

I told you
There's USB 5v isolators and separate data/power cables out there.

Could. E

Update: I could not get my streamer to recognize the Udac without the 5v input. I'll play around with a few more options, but it's probably not going to work. With my old SOTM sms-200 ultra neo I could connect to the SOTM tx-usb without the 5v signal, so I know that it's possible with some devices, but in this case I cannot get my streamer to talk to the Udac without the 5v pin. It could be that Laiv misunderstood my question and thought that I was asking if the Udac will work without a 5v input powering the unit, as it is powered through the external dc input. Not sure, but if I could get it to connect without the 5v input that would be a bonus. I've actually seen usb cables that allow you to connect with the 5v conductor, and then disconnect only the 5v conductor once the dac is recognized by the streamer. I would be worried that would cause an electrical arc though by disconnected a 5v conductor when in use.

Could be that 5v is needed to trigger on USB input, I seen that in some iDACs

 

[rafabro]

I would say in most of DAC 5V is so called "hand shake" to confirm connection. Even if is not used for any signal transmission.
Is what it is. If 5V is required by uDAC then cable has to provide.

 

[JerseyD]

Checking in after a couple more days with the uDAC…
I am not going to fight with anyone over this, but I am a firm believer in both equipment burn-in and brain burn-in. With more than 150 hours of play time (some while listening, but more while not listening) the uDAC itself should have settled down to reveal its true self by now, but may continue to improve with another week.

My brain has had time to stop trying to compare it to my old DAC, to acclimate to the new sound, and just listen to it for what it is. And I have to say, I am really enjoying the way this DAC sounds. Bass and mids, in particular, are fantastic. I like a bold, meaty sound, and this has it. Vocals, guitars and horns are rendered in a beautiful and lifelike - real sounding way.

It’s the treble that is taking the most time to wrap my head around. It is softer and more diffuse than I am used to. That said, a more organic and less etched treble is one of the things I love about dynamic driver headphones vs. planars (and tubes vs. SS, for that matter). The uDAC makes my system lean even more in that direction and I suspect that once I get more used to it, I’m going to love it. Will check in with y’all again next week…

 

[OhmsClaw]

Checking in after a couple more days with the uDAC…
I am not going to fight with anyone over this, but I am a firm believer in both equipment burn-in and brain burn-in. With more than 150 hours of play time (some while listening, but more while not listening) the uDAC itself should have settled down to reveal its true self by now, but may continue to improve with another week.

My brain has had time to stop trying to compare it to my old DAC, to acclimate to the new sound, and just listen to it for what it is. And I have to say, I am really enjoying the way this DAC sounds. Bass and mids, in particular, are fantastic. I like a bold, meaty sound, and this has it. Vocals, guitars and horns are rendered in a beautiful and lifelike - real sounding way.

It’s the treble that is taking the most time to wrap my head around. It is softer and more diffuse than I am used to. That said, a more organic and less etched treble is one of the things I love about dynamic driver headphones vs. planars (and tubes vs. SS, for that matter). The uDAC makes my system lean even more in that direction and I suspect that once I get more used to it, I’m going to love it. Will check in with y’all again next week…

OS or NOS mode primarily? (With respect to your softer treble comment at the end) What rate playback? (44.1/48? Or 96/192?)

 

[JerseyD]

OS or NOS mode primarily? (With respect to your softer treble comment at the end) What rate playback? (44.1/48? Or 96/192?)

All NOS so far. Wanted to get a bead on one mode before venturing to the other. Both 44.1 and 96.

 

[vvume]

All NOS so far. Wanted to get a bead on one mode before venturing to the other. Both 44.1 and 96.

I always run in NOS mode and its just perfect with 48Khz/24-bit streaming and gets peaky on bad recordings. I get more treble presence if I use my Mac mini's native upsampling (Midi application) to 384Khz/32-bit. Unless you are coming from a Chord Dave or Mola Mola Tambaqui equivalent delta-sigma dacs, I wouldn't consider Laiv to be soft in the treble, just that it has a blacker and uncongested background with excellent layering like many R2R dacs that don't throw details in your face as much as these delta-sigma dacs do (layering prominence vs. detail prominence trade-off). But I have a LHY USB UIP, and a Gaia DDC before feeding the signal into the Laiv which takes care of electrical noise and clocking. Without it, I am guessing the Laiv would be noticeably softer. I suspect even the LHY USP UIP directly into the Laiv should sound very good as the Laiv has good clocks in it.

Edit: All of my observations are on a speaker system with an excellent pre-amp. Not sure that would necessarily translate to headphone systems that generally don't seem to benefit from R2R dacs to the same extent.

 

[OhmsClaw]

I always run in NOS mode and its just perfect with 48Khz/24-bit streaming and gets peaky on bad recordings. I get more treble presence if I use my Mac mini's native upsampling (Midi application) to 384Khz/32-bit. Unless you are coming from a Chord Dave or Mola Mola Tambaqui equivalent delta-sigma dacs, I wouldn't consider Laiv to be soft in the treble, just that it has a blacker and uncongested background with excellent layering like many R2R dacs that don't throw details in your face as much as these delta-sigma dacs do (layering prominence vs. detail prominence trade-off). But I have a LHY USB UIP, and a Gaia DDC before feeding the signal into the Laiv which takes care of electrical noise and clocking. Without it, I am guessing the Laiv would be noticeably softer. I suspect even the LHY USP UIP directly into the Laiv should sound very good as the Laiv has good clocks in it.

Edit: All of my observations are on a speaker system with an excellent pre-amp. Not sure that would necessarily translate to headphone systems that generally don't seem to benefit from R2R dacs to the same extent.

NOS at 44.1 will roll off early by at least 3dB. This affects all NOS DAC's and can affect the impression of the overall tonality.

I intend to use OS so I am primarily interested in a "soft" impression if it were in OS rather than NOS. I expect NOS to create that impression.

96Khz or greater avoids that roll-off all together in NOS so that's another consideration..

 

[rafabro]

NOS at 44.1 will roll off early by at least 3dB. This affects all NOS DAC's and can affect the impression of the overall tonality.

I intend to use OS so I am primarily interested in a "soft" impression if it were in OS rather than NOS. I expect NOS to create that impression.

Real life experience with Harmony shows that NOS mode has more "air" between phantom sound sources. + lower extension

OS mode gives harder bass but is less extended.

One or another, remote control is in the box and you can switch between modes with every song as often you like.

 

[OhmsClaw]

Real life experience with Harmony shows that NOS mode has more "air" between phantom sound sources. + lower extension

OS mode gives harder bass but is less extended.

One or another, remote control is in the box and you can switch between modes with every song as often you like.

This is the opposite of all measurements and experience with all NOS sources at redbook ever.

They literally roll off early and couldn't possibly be more extended in the 17Khz+ direction.



Perhaps you mean they appear more spacious.

 

[rafabro]

You will hear yourself once you get it

I listen to NOS in 99% of time because sounds more natural.

 

[Old Norse]

This is the opposite of all measurements and experience with all NOS sources at redbook ever.

They literally roll off early and couldn't possibly be more extended in the 17Khz+ direction.



Perhaps you mean they appear more spacious.

I think he means more extended in the bass.

 

[mchuckp]

So I've seen references to using this Benchmark XLR>RCA cable for those of us who only have RCA.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/collecti...dapter-cable-pin-3-floating?variant=547761981

I see Monoprice has one as well that is described as such and avail via this link.
"This cable uses the standard pinout with pins 1 and 3 of the XLR connector wired to the shield of the RCA plug and pin 2 of the XLR connector wired to the tip of the RCA plug.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=4785

I also see a handful on Amazon with at least one of them showing a diagram that appears to be described the same way as the Monoprice.

Are all of these acceptable and I'm trying to hard to find a cable? Are nearly all of these types of cables made to a certain standard and I should stop stressing over what to get and just pick one? I was going to order the Benchmark but they are out of stock and I'm still waiting to hear back on when they will have more.

Thanks.

 

[JerseyD]

So I've seen references to using this Benchmark XLR>RCA cable for those of us who only have RCA.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/collecti...dapter-cable-pin-3-floating?variant=547761981

I see Monoprice has one as well that is described as such and avail via this link.
"This cable uses the standard pinout with pins 1 and 3 of the XLR connector wired to the shield of the RCA plug and pin 2 of the XLR connector wired to the tip of the RCA plug.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=4785

I also see a handful on Amazon with at least one of them showing a diagram that appears to be described the same way as the Monoprice.

Are all of these acceptable and I'm trying to hard to find a cable? Are nearly all of these types of cables made to a certain standard and I should stop stressing over what to get and just pick one? I was going to order the Benchmark but they are out of stock and I'm still waiting to hear back on when they will have more.

Thanks.

I know the Benchmark is configured properly, but not sure about the Monoprice or the generics. Jesse at Pine Tree Audio in Massachusetts will make you a pair properly configured and at the custom length you need. Mine were two feet for $60 total. Excellent quality, too. Email him.