Laiv Harmony µDAC, Discrete Balanced R-2R DAC

[OhmsClaw]

Huh? It's just like any other RCA output. Signal + ground. If your amplifier is single ended like most home use hifi nothing changes. If an amplifier has XLR inputs just for convenience it does exactly the same.
A real balanced amplifier has everything double. That means double the cost or cheaper parts.

We really have to demystify XLR and balanced connections. It really isn't useful or smart for home use.

The uDAC runs 4VMRS which we can assume means converting down to SE halves the output Voltage. Or -6dB.

This assumes it's not fake XLR with a blanked (-) pin...(at the output)

"True balanced" or doubling of components says nothing of a push pull output/differential Class A running a phase inverted or balanced signal.

So in a fixed level output situation my original post stands a passive pre will only serve to further attenuate the signal. Some may require some gain with the benefits of volume control in line. Typically a head amp that may benefit from a hotter signal or at least a 4VMRS input granting more range/use of the volume pot or gain settings downstream.

Nothing mysterious.
Outside of RCA propaganda, XLR also helps grounding issues with a SMPS/Floated devices in some situations for free.

 

[]eep]

That's not what I said. Or meant. The μDAC is true balanced, that means the signal lines are doubled. That means 4 signal lines instead of 2, which doubles the effort. I think marketing compels them, not common sense, to do this.

Many users use single ended gear.

Any good tubeamp is single ended, focussing on the best sound quality for a single line. For true balanced you need to double up the amount of tubes and power consumption. For 6dB electrical power, actually just 3dB in acoustic power. That is pure waste of resources. The same goes for transistors, even they use power and wear eventually. And cost money to make the best quality.

If I might throw a car analogy at it... Comparing a 2 wheel vs 4 wheel drive. Yes, 4WD is superior. But imagine a car with 2 engines, 1 for the front wheels and 1 for the rear wheels. That's what a balanced amplifier is. Why does every (as in 100%) car have only 1 engine? And most road vehicles only exclusively 2 wheels powered? If you need more power you get a better engine. If you need a better driving experience, build a road! Instead of mucking around in a 4WD on a muddy dirt road. At home you're already on a fast highway. No 1000 heads crowd with cellphones on. I know what just 1 cellphone can do to your SNR in a PA setting with only a 100 people and 10m cables.

Paralleling is the 'smart' solution for dummies.

 

[OhmsClaw]

That's not what I said. Or meant. The μDAC is true balanced, that means the signal lines are doubled. That means 4 signal lines instead of 2, which doubles the effort. I think marketing compels them, not common sense, to do this.

Many users use single ended gear.

Any good tubeamp is single ended, focussing on the best sound quality for a single line. For true balanced you need to double up the amount of tubes and power consumption. For 6dB electrical power, actually just 3dB in acoustic power. That is pure waste of resources. The same goes for transistors, even they use power and wear eventually. And cost money to make the best quality.

This is tangential to my point...

 

[]eep]

This is tangential to my point...

I think you're right, that wasn't my point at all.

There's nothing wrong with the μDAC, it's fully balanced. And using the plug doesn't halve the output. It doesn't "convert down to" anything electrical. It's just a different plug. The output on the signal pin stays exactly the same. +2V. You might say that's just semantics, but if we don't use the same language, the same semantics, we're clearly talking past eachother.

I've already had so many people asking me about XLR. "can I do this", "doesn't it cause problems", "wouldn't such or so be better". Laiv providing these plugs takes away a lot of anxiety from users but it looks rather awkward on the tiny μDAC. With even more twist with stiff cables than XLR cables with giant plugs already do.

Not to mention the annoying click lock on XLR cables which is of no use whatsoever at home, just makes life harder when rearranging cables behind a rack or in a cabinet.

 

[mchuckp]

I think you're right, that wasn't my point at all.

There's nothing wrong with the μDAC, it's fully balanced. And using the plug doesn't halve the output. The output on the signal pin stays exactly the same. +2v. You might say stats just semantics, but if we don't use the same language, the same semantics, were clearly talking past eachother.

I've already had so many people asking me about XLR. "can I do this", "doesn't it cause problems", "wouldn't such or so be better". Laiv providing these plugs takes away a lot of anxiety from users but it looks rather awkward on the tiny μDAC. With even more twist with stiff cables than XLR cables with giant plugs already do.

Not to mention the annoying click lock on XLR cables which is of no use whatsoever at home, just makes life harder when rearranging cables behind a rack or in a cabinet.

For anyone who needs an RCA connection, these cables end up the same price as the adaptors Laiv has. Custom made at Pinetree Audio (USA). Nice cables and I had them the following week. If you need any just reach out and tell them you need “pin 3 floating”. I did confirm with Laiv this is what is correct.

 

[OhmsClaw]

I think you're right, that wasn't my point at all.

There's nothing wrong with the μDAC, it's fully balanced. And using the plug doesn't halve the output. It doesn't "convert down to" anything electrical. It's just a different plug. The output on the signal pin stays exactly the same. +2V. You might say that's just semantics, but if we don't use the same language, the same semantics, we're clearly talking past eachother.

I've already had so many people asking me about XLR. "can I do this", "doesn't it cause problems", "wouldn't such or so be better". Laiv providing these plugs takes away a lot of anxiety from users but it looks rather awkward on the tiny μDAC. With even more twist with stiff cables than XLR cables with giant plugs already do.

Not to mention the annoying click lock on XLR cables which is of no use whatsoever at home, just makes life harder when rearranging cables behind a rack or in a cabinet.

I agree I was just saying that the native RCA adapters are an (maybe exciting) opportunity to add an active pre or tube pre because it both adds back the halved voltage and can be a justified indulgence

If one has an integrated or am amp that's Susvara/Tungsten capable already they won't miss the 6dB

 

[]eep]

Well, if I see Paul McGowan talk about the importance of preamps... Quite the contrast with passive preamp protagonists. Like this one I just watched.


Many roads leading to Rome... Me, a simple soul not learned in higher EE lore, would say you need so much amplification, you can do that in one step, so why do it in two steps? A preamp usually does attenuation first and then amplification. Like a good rollercoaster ride. I've seen DACs like that. Amplification going up and down and up and down. Same with my Jolida JD9 phono preamp I learned so much from modifying. Opamp, resistor, opamp, resistor, opamp, resistor, tube, resistor. Quite dizzying. Why are there so few amplifiers with variable gain instead of attenuator+ full blast gain?

So far I'm very pleased with the HP2A HP-preamp getting pretty much out of the way. The next step being the power amplifier. This first proper well done review of the SMSL VMV GaNFET amp didn't really wet my appetite.

I don't get the idea it is a cheaper alternative to the Laiv GanM monoblocks. It's just straight and clean. Like glass of mineral water.
Btw: the inputs are so clear if you understand balanced vs unbalanced amplifier. You can't use it in stereo from the XLR (2 lines) but you can use it as unbalanced from RCA (2 lines). You need two for monoblocks to get just 3dB extra acoustic pressure (6dB electrical power). I need to stop ranting about that now. I made my point.

 

[L2470]

https://twitteringmachines.com/обзор-laiv-audio-harmony-%c2%b5dac/

 

[StokeNewingtonJohn]

Hi, I’m curious to know whether anyone’s had a power issue with connecting the μDAC straight into a RCA-only tube headphone amp with Laiv’s new XLR to RCA converters or a lead like that nice looking Pinetree one mentioned earlier. For me it would be into a Woo WA8 or Icon HP205 D. Looking at the thread, it seems not, but some online reviews suggest otherwise (e.g. Old Cuy Hifi and Passion For Sound).

 

[]eep]

Hi, I’m curious to know whether anyone’s had a power issue with connecting the μDAC straight into a RCA-only tube headphone amp with Laiv’s new XLR to RCA converters or a lead like that nice looking Pinetree one mentioned earlier. For me it would be into a Woo WA8 or Icon HP205 D. Looking at the thread, it seems not, but some online reviews suggest otherwise (e.g. Old Cuy Hifi and Passion For Sound).

What did Laughlin say then? It's just your regular 2V RCA with the adaptor or XLR to RCA cable.

I don't want to be unkind but I unsubscribed old guy hifi because he glosses over to many things because he goes to fast. And honestly, he's rather pigheaded. He makes mistakes and doesn't want to listen to kind suggestions. I'm talking about gear he reviewed that I own.

 

[mchuckp]

Hi, I’m curious to know whether anyone’s had a power issue with connecting the μDAC straight into a RCA-only tube headphone amp with Laiv’s new XLR to RCA converters or a lead like that nice looking Pinetree one mentioned earlier. For me it would be into a Woo WA8 or Icon HP205 D. Looking at the thread, it seems not, but some online reviews suggest otherwise (e.g. Old Cuy Hifi and Passion For Sound).

Not sure what power issue there would be unless one needs the higher output of XLR for their application. I had zero issues with mine and the Pinetree cables into my tube amp. I sold my udac to someone who is also using it with my Pinetree cables in a tube amp and no issues.

Only reason I could see a reviewer questioning it is if they don’t know how it is pinned and does not want to give bad advice. Laiv sells adaptors and has said to me and others that cables are fine as long as they are 3rd pin floating.

 

[JerseyD]

Hi, I’m curious to know whether anyone’s had a power issue with connecting the μDAC straight into a RCA-only tube headphone amp with Laiv’s new XLR to RCA converters or a lead like that nice looking Pinetree one mentioned earlier. For me it would be into a Woo WA8 or Icon HP205 D. Looking at the thread, it seems not, but some online reviews suggest otherwise (e.g. Old Cuy Hifi and Passion For Sound).

No issues whatsoever with the Pinetree cables.

 

[StokeNewingtonJohn]

Not sure what power issue there would be unless one needs the higher output of XLR for their application. I had zero issues with mine and the Pinetree cables into my tube amp. I sold my udac to someone who is also using it with my Pinetree cables in a tube amp and no issues.

Only reason I could see a reviewer questioning it is if they don’t know how it is pinned and does not want to give bad advice. Laiv sells adaptors and has said to me and others that cables are fine as long as they are 3rd pin floating.

Fantastic. Good to know it looks like it’s a total non-issue.

On Lachlan’s (typically thorough) review, he just mentioned that it could not be connected to RCA tube amps like the Harmony DAC, but I’ve checked direct with him and I clearly misunderstood: this was just a reference there being no RCA outputs.

He also made these interesting comments on how it compares to the Qutest…

 

[mchuckp]

Fantastic. Good to knowooks like it’s a total non-issue.

On Lachlan’s (typically thorough) review, he just mentioned that it could not be connected to RCA tube amps like the Harmony DAC, but I’ve checked direct with him and I clearly misunderstood: this was just a reference there being no RCA outputs.

He also made these interesting comments on how it compares to the Qutest…

RE: Comparison to Qutest:

I've owned the Mojo 2, Qutest, and TT2 with and without an M Scaler. I had the TT2 and a Holo Cyan 2 at the same time and did a lot of comparisons. I then sold the TT2 and also tried the uDAC. I think I would mostly agree with him regarding the Qutest (and Chord in general) but would only say the uDAC is "laid back" in comparison to Chord dacs. I wouldn't say it is laid back in general. The likes of Laiv and Holo are NOT laid back as what many typically think of R2R historically.

To me, Chord dacs in general do an excellent job of placing items in a stage and excellent performance top to bottom with a high level of detail while remaining fairly organic. They also excel in having a black background. The uDAC will be more laid back than this and won't be as pinpointed on the staging but will sound more organic in the timbre while still having very good detail. I also find R2R DACs are much better at creating more depth in the sound (holographic).

When I compared my TT2 to the Cyan 2, they both are great but I preferred the more organic and holographic sound of the C2. The TT2 can come across more detailed but staging was more left to right. It has some depth but not like the C2. I sold my TT2 and I then got the uDAC to compare to the C2. I found the uDAC not as "meaty" sounding as the C2 and didn't have as black of a background. I toyed with trying the uDDC but opted to not put that much more money into it as even if it made it blacker and added some refinement to its detail and staging, I felt I was still going to prefer to the meatier tone of the C2 so I sold it.

Also, if you consider the Laiv (or Holo) think about your music tastes and if you want to use an external upsampler. I don't use any and love the NOS sound. As with most things audio, comes down to your chain and your personal preferences.

 

[OhmsClaw]

RE: Comparison to Qutest:
I suppose the most important question with thr C2 preference, is what is your source? Are you upsampling everything?
I've owned the Mojo 2, Qutest, and TT2 with and without an M Scaler. I had the TT2 and a Holo Cyan 2 at the same time and did a lot of comparisons. I then sold the TT2 and also tried the uDAC. I think I would mostly agree with him regarding the Qutest (and Chord in general) but would only say the uDAC is "laid back" in comparison to Chord dacs. I wouldn't say it is laid back in general. The likes of Laiv and Holo are NOT laid back as what many typically think of R2R historically.

To me, Chord dacs in general do an excellent job of placing items in a stage and excellent performance top to bottom with a high level of detail while remaining fairly organic. They also excel in having a black background. The uDAC will be more laid back than this and won't be as pinpointed on the staging but will sound more organic in the timbre while still having very good detail. I also find R2R DACs are much better at creating more depth in the sound (holographic).

When I compared my TT2 to the Cyan 2, they both are great but I preferred the more organic and holographic sound of the C2. The TT2 can come across more detailed but staging was more left to right. It has some depth but not like the C2. I sold my TT2 and I then got the uDAC to compare to the C2. I found the uDAC not as "meaty" sounding as the C2 and didn't have as black of a background. I toyed with trying the uDDC but opted to not put that much more money into it as even if it made it blacker and added some refinement to its detail and staging, I felt I was still going to prefer to the meatier tone of the C2 so I sold it.

Also, if you consider the Laiv (or Holo) think about your music tastes and if you want to use an external upsampler. I don't use any and love the NOS sound. As with most things audio, comes down to your chain and your personal preferences.

Ahh I see my reply didn't post.

The question was with those preferences, what's your OS/source?