[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Attitude aside, which I feel also that is a result maybe of how the whole story was conducted, I have not act like them, but not everybody has the same temper, not saying that I'm an angel, but.....Also have you ever thought that they may be pissed because of how the whole event was handled??? Not very porfessional, but honestly I would be pissed, if my reputation is at the stake as they have theirs now, and they feel that they are not at fault as they do... Guys nobody can be so irresponsible as to act that way, think for a while again, something is not very clear here, and IMO there are still facts that are not 100% straight to me, from both sides... Have you ever dealt with customers yourself, let me tell you that I have been involved in transactions outside and here with Headfi members, that I will regret my whole life, there are individuals that are simply really hard to satisfy, and even while you bend over to do your best, they still complaint...not saying that this is the case, but being in both sides I always give both sides the benefit of the doubt, till I'm 100% covinced of one thing.... Also you are again making conclussions of what was told and was exposed here, that, could be or not 100% true, it could be partially true, it could be a big misunderstading between both parties, it could be somewhat a lack or proper communication, etc... We are talking of professional workers here, with common sense, and a business conducted for years, it is hard for me to believe blindly all this story sorry for being so honest... Alex is a nice guy, but IMO he also made a mistake from the tactical point of view. He posted his side of the story, from what he was told by the owner, as he never said anything that he was involved at all in the original transaction or event, and till now there is evidence that he was present while the problem were discussed by phone, IMO, and unless he actually was, and that is only my opinion, but if I were in his shoes, I would never made any comment regarding this issue public, even if the customer ask me do it. A manufacturer simply should not talk about other manufacturers job publicly, good or bad. Your actions should speak for yourself, simple ethics...Again I have no dog in this fight, and I'm simply making some observations from the outside...next time Alex do yourself that favor...never miss an opportunity of remain in silence, just keep on working they way you usually do and you will be never pointed for being wrong...Just see how Ray, Tyll, Mikhail, Rudi, Drew, and many others conduct their business, you will never see them talking of any event, not related with their own business, that is the way to go IMO... Till now none of the two parties, have convinced me that they are 100% right or wrong...so IMO the truth is still somewhat in the middle...

On this one I could not agree more with you.
Well said.

 

[warpdriver]

This will indeed go down as one of the great HeadFi mysteries.

 

[2deadeyes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnothingpoetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif JL took down the entire R10 page, and even their response. http://www.jenalabs.com/headphones/sony-r-10.html No where to be found on their site.

Thanks to Google

jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 

[909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnothingpoetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif JL took down the entire R10 page, and even their response. http://www.jenalabs.com/headphones/sony-r-10.html No where to be found on their site.

This is intriguing, telling, and utterly consistent with how they have handled themselves throughout this whole debacle.

If I gave it a theme it would be, they know not what they do. It's clear to me now that they do not think before they act, speak or write--they're impulsive and in a perpetual self-serving bias mode.

Vaporizing all mention of the R10s from their website evinces a seemingly desperate attempt to make it appear as if they never worked on R10s and this pitiful situation never happened. This looks so freaking shady and it's not as if no one has those pages off JL's website saved. This is one class-act of a company and reaffirms my position that they should be avoided at all cost.

 

[909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2deadeyes /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks to Google jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

yeah it should be saved and posted plus someone needs to get and save their reply to this thread too.

 

[Sovkiller]

Another point that you may consider, if Hirsch, or Tyll, or Dr. Meier, markl, or Voltron, or Jude, or Aaron, or Buze, or Jahn, or any other trusty old member come here with a complaint about any company, knowing their reputation we may assume that they are 100% right, but keep in mind that we never heard of that person before comming here just to expose his version of the facts, that IMO are somewhat a little hard to digest, and in a minute, everybody agree and jump in the accusatory wagon, trying to crucify JL....Guys not to be an ass, but why trusting a first poster so blindly, whitout knowing him first, not saying that he is lying but why not taking his post with grain of salt, and at least give the benefit of the doubt to JL...

Everybody took a side before JL made any comment, after they posted their own version, everybody still took the same side, now they remove the info, and everybody is still on the same side, what bother asking then?

They simply did what comon sense indicates, if nobody is interested in our version of the facts, why bother to offer them, believe what you want and period...!!!! Trust them that this issue will not affect their business a single bit, they have customers for years and years that trust them and their reputation, they may not have any other from here maybe, but what this represents in their business, numbers talking?

Guys stop beating a dead horse, the let things settle, I think that everybody got what they wanted now...

 

[jrosenth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another point that you may consider, if Hirsch, or Tyll, or Dr. Meier, markl, or Voltron, or Jude, or Aaron, or Buze, or Jahn, or any other trusty old member come here with a complaint about any company, knowing their reputation we may assume that they are 100% right, but keep in mind that we never heard of that person before comming here just to expose his version of the facts, that IMO are somewhat a little hard to digest, and in a minute, everybody agree and jump in the accusatory wagon, trying to crucify JL....Guys not to be an ass, but why trusting a first poster so blindly, whitout knowing him first, not saying that he is lying but why not taking his post with grain of salt, and at least give the benefit of the doubt to JL... Everybody took a side before JL made any comment, after they posted their own version, everybody still took the same side, now they remove the info, and everybody is still on the same side, what bother asking then? They simply did what comon sense indicates, if nobody is interested in our version of the facts, why bother to offer them, believe what you want and period...!!!! Trust them that this issue will not affect their business a single bit, they have customers for years and years that trust them and their reputation, they may not have any other from here maybe, but what this represents in their business, numbers talking? Guys stop beating a dead horse, the let things settle, I think that everybody got what they wanted now...

Hey Sovkiller,

Let's say that BH is a total shill and that JL is 100% in the right.

Question for you as a MOT:

Would you handle this the way JL did?

Would you send an email naming the customer to a (supposedly) random customer?

Would you charge the way JL is admittedly charging (not just amount but for the "work" as they describe in their email)?

Would you post a customer's full name on your site with an accusation that he's vindictive?

Would you then come in and post a pretty snarky post when questioned on it?

Would you then delete the whole page on your site?

-

People have questioned BH and Alex's motives and made insinuations, even taken some shots, and you don't see them pulling any of that. I'd like to believe that you wouldn't either.

That puts put all of you in a very different camp than JL.

 

[Voltron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another point that you may consider, if Hirsch, or Tyll, or Dr. Meier, markl, or Voltron, or Jude, or Aaron, or Buze, or Jahn, or any other trusty old member come here with a complaint about any company, knowing their reputation we may assume that they are 100% right, but keep in mind that we never heard of that person before comming here just to expose his version of the facts, that IMO are somewhat a little hard to digest, and in a minute, everybody agree and jump in the accusatory wagon, trying to crucify JL....Guys not to be an ass, but why trusting a first poster so blindly, whitout knowing him first, not saying that he is lying but why not taking his post with grain of salt, and at least give the benefit of the doubt to JL... Everybody took a side before JL made any comment, after they posted their own version, everybody still took the same side, now they remove the info, and everybody is still on the same side, what bother asking then? They simply did what comon sense indicates, if nobody is interested in our version of the facts, why bother to offer them, believe what you want and period...!!!! Trust them that this issue will not affect their business a single bit, they have customers for years and years that turst them and their reputation, they may not have any other from here maybe, but what this represents in their business, numbers talking? Guys stop beating a dead horse, the let things settle, i think that everybody got what they wanted now...

I appreciate being put in the list of trusty old members Alberto, well except the old part

, but it seems you are giving all the benefit of the doubt to JL because they are an established company and have experience with headphones. I'm sorry, but they can screw up too. I did not jump on any accusatory wagon, but made an assessment of what facts were available. No, I do not know BoilingFrog but I do have a pretty good sense of Alex and his business that he has built on reputation and experience in the Head-Fi community. I believe him and his analysis, I see the pictures, and I understand he had some dealings with JL directly that backed up what BF told him about his treatment.

And once again, I do not agree with your opinion that Alex should keep this to himself. He showed that he could not only do the basic job for a lot less than the "established company" but also that he could repair the damage in a thorough and professional manner. He put his neck out to inform the community of the facts, and if he gets business from it then more power to him. I suggest if you are really unclear about who did what and who is to blame that you re-read the details in his account and the JL account and I think you will discover that there is no way the damage was done by anyone else.

I also believe that BF had the experience he described based upon the abhorrent behavior of JL since Alex posted his information and this thread started. I simply stupefied how a reputable company -- as I assumed them to be -- could handle a situation the way JL has handled this matter. Providing the name and other private information of a customer to a random third party individual simply because he asked about a thread on Head-Fi is inexcusable. Allowing the pot to boil for several days and then actually posting a direct attack against that customer and including his full name repeatedly on their website is beyond belief. Their posts here on Head-Fi were even more ridiculous, confrontational, immature and to my mind further evidence of their lack of judgment. Now that they have eradicated any reference to R10s or this incident on their site, I guess that JL is just cutting losses and moving on.

Yes, this type of thread causes a lot of side-taking and even name-calling and other internet behavior that detracts from the point. To me, however, the window dressing is not as important as the core issue and there is no way I will buy a Jena Labs product or any gear containing Jena Labs products because I won't do business with people who conduct their business in the way they THEMSELVES have done here and on their website.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnothingpoetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif JL took down the entire R10 page, and even their response. jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10 No where to be found on their site.

Out of sight, out of mind.

As far as giving JenaLabs any benefit of the doubt for the damage caused, I've certainly weighed that in as a possibility, but I have a problem with these issues:

Regarding the Damage

1. They claim the owner complained of sound problems before they ever had the headphones:
   
   Quote:
   
   

   After the headphones arrived at our location S.W. specifically asked repeatedly, about the details of sonic qualities we heard in them if we had heard any break-up or intermittent sound from the headphones, which in our limited listening tests at moderate volume levels, we did not hear.

   
   
   I'm not sure I believe that, but again, giving them benefit of the doubt, why do "limited" tests if they are about to mess around with expensive and difficult R10s. If they are the "experts" they themselves claimed on their website, wouldn't they, as a business, want to limit their liability by checking the complaints out thoroughly, and reporting back to the owner before messing around with them? Apparently not.
   
2. Oh wait. They did check everything out! They removed the drivers. In fact, they bragged that the previous modder hadn't done so, thus eliminating him as the cause, but later saying he could have been the cause. You can't have it both ways. Strike two to credibility.
   
3. But they then say: Quote:
   
   

   Upon disassembly, we also noted that on one of the drive units one of the very fine wire strands, a voice coil wire extending from the interior of the drive unit to the solder pad where connections are made, was formed into a slightly protruded loop and had been kinked. It should be noted that the other drive unit, nor any other drive units from other examples of the same make and model of headphone that we have seen, or seen photos of, exhibited such a protrusion. This extending loop would in our opinion represent a fault in the original construction. An attempt was made to stabilize this fragile protrusion of very fine wire by locating it adjacent to the physical boundary of the ear speaker frame, and holding it in place with adhesive. This was a trivial operation and not mentioned in any communications.

   
   
   Now they admit they saw a problem, but never thought to mention it to the owner who had been repeatedly asking about why he heard problems (if true at all)? That makes NO sense whatsoever, especially considering they were sooo busy being proud of the other problems they found and documented on their website. They also say it was a problem of original construction, not Mikhail's recable. All I see is that they want to aim potential blame two separate places (Mikhail, whom they claimed never touched the drivers, and Sony, for their poor construction), all the while admitting they were the ones who removed the drivers, "repaired" the voice coil, and chose to not tell anyone at all. Nothing rings true here. Nothing. But, giving them the benefit of the doubt, let's say all that is true, and move on.
   
4. This is still the first time they've had the headphones. They tested them, and said they sounded great. Jennifer claims they sent them to Ken Ball for him to hear, and Ken reports that she brought them over for him to hear. Either way, I have huge problems with this. Did the owner gave them permission to be carting his headphones all over town? I would personally be furious if anyone just up and decided to transport my R10s to other people without my permission. Permission given or not, I immediately noticed the way the wood cups were placed down on the desk in the pictures Ken provided. Not good, and potentially damaging. Regardless, Ken is innocent in this matter, and shouldn't be getting any flack in this thread or anywhere. He said they also sounded fine. Jena claims they sounded outstanding. Boilingfrog reports not liking the sound, but doesn't complain about the intermittent sound break-ups. He sends them back for a different cable.
   
5. When Boilingfrog sends them back, Jena claims they heard problems, but now blame boilingfrog:
   
   Quote:
   
   

   This performance fault was CLEARLY not present at the time the headphones were shipped, and we can only conclude that something had happened to them while back in his possession that would cause the fault of occasional sound interruption. Upon disassembly we found the kinked fragile wire that we had discovered the first time the headphones were worked on, to have developed an intermittent open circuit at the point of the pre-existing kink. This defect was easily repaired by soldering a fine copper wire of similar size between the intact end of the voice coil wire, and the solder tab. The repair wire was stabilized by adhering it to the body of the drive unit.

   
   
   So far, they admit to messing with the voice coil twice, but never mentioned either "repair" to anyone? Why keep this a secret? Considering they are already in a dispute over sq with boilingfrog, why hide this? Not once, but twice? Doesn't make sense at all.
   
6. Later they say they received the headphones for the third time, but report they arrived disassembled. WTH? They claim they can't do sq tests due to this, but put the stock cable back on. Can boilingfrog confirm he sent the headphones to them this way? Why wouldn't Jena just say, "we won't touch them because we can't hear anything or test anything since you sent them to us disassembled"? Why take that risk, if true? That, again, makes no sense. Instead, they go back into the R10s for a third time? A third time?
   
7. Lastly, they claim to have made repairs to the voice coil twice and acknowledged doing three recables which require driver removal. They then announce after Alex discovers their handiwork:
   
   Quote:
   
   

   That person found the external voice coil wire defect repair job that we had performed at no charge. S.W. phoned and confronted us with the existence of the repair, and we freely admitted to performing it. We DID NOT in anyway admit verbally or in any other manner to any liability for the further repair of the defect, nor are we responsible for such repair, even though you were trying very hard to get us to admit so.

   
   

They announce that they've "repaired" the voice coil twice and removed the drivers three times, didn't even test after the third time, but say, "we are not responsible for such repair." They make repairs, don't tell anyone, then admit to making them, but deny responsibility. I can't even wrap my head around this one. Regardless of anything else that has gone on before, just wow.

After the mess came out on the Alex's site and here

1. Jena states (before deletion) on their own website that morph201, who is not even a customer and a complete stranger to them, emails them with questions about what he's read here. Without batting an eye, they email him compete details of a dispute with a private customer, knowing full well it will be posted at least in part. How freaking unprofessional!
   
   
2. They publish boilingfrog's real name on their website, and post links here and on audio asylum. I don't care how right or wrong anyone is with anything else or how angry they are as persons, as a company, you just don't do that. If they can do that, why wouldn't they also be equally unethical in every other matter? With every action, they have opened the doors to doubt and suspicion, not the other way around.

JenaLab's own words make their case completely unbelievable, even if there's a drop of truth to their version of things. With each step of the way, they have acted unprofessionally and/or unethically, and destroyed their own credibility without help from anyone, except maybe morph201, who posted their email to him.

In a way, we should thank morph201 for allowing us to see how very unethical JenaLabs is willing to be when their back is against the wall. As to morph201's treatment here, he set it up and perpetuated it. If he'd simply said from the beginning he was just a curious guy who emailed them for their side, and this is what he got, he would have received no flack, at least not from me. Instead, he posted little winkies and made cryptic claims that it was "his business." People responded to the garbage he chose to put out, and continued to put out, page after page. He could have stopped it any time he chose, but chose to toy with people for whatever sick reasons he held. He deserves no sympathy.

I think I'm going to go listen to my stock R10s now and be happy. CanJam is in less than one week. Wonderful MoTs will be there: professional, ethical, talented, and personable. A community of great head-fiers will be hanging out for a couple days, listening to great gear and having fun. At this point, that's what matters to me.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltron /img/forum/go_quote.gif I appreciate being put in the list of trusty old members Alberto, well except the old part , but it seems you are giving all the benefit of the doubt to JL because they are an established company and have experience with headphones. I'm sorry, but they can screw up too. I did not jump on any accusatory wagon, but made an assessment of what facts were available. No, I do not know BoilingFrog but I do have a pretty good sense of Alex and his business that he has built on reputation and experience in the Head-Fi community. I believe him and his analysis, I see the pictures, and I understand he had some dealings with JL directly that backed up what BF told him about his treatment. And once again, I do not agree with your opinion that Alex should keep this to himself. He showed that he could not only do the basic job for a lot less than the "established company" but also that he could repair the damage in a thorough and professional manner. He put his neck out to inform the community of the facts, and if he gets business from it then more power to him. I suggest if you are really unclear about who did what and who is to blame that you re-read the details in his account and the JL account and I think you will discover that there is no way the damage was done by anyone else. I also believe that BF had the experience he described based upon the abhorrent behavior of JL since Alex posted his information and this thread started. I simply stupefied how a reputable company -- as I assumed them to be -- could handle a situation the way JL has handled this matter. Providing the name and other private information of a customer to a random third party individual simply because he asked about a thread on Head-Fi is inexcusable. Allowing the pot to boil for several days and then actually posting a direct attack against that customer and including his full name repeatedly on their website is beyond belief. Their posts here on Head-Fi were even more ridiculous, confrontational, immature and to my mind further evidence of their lack of judgment. Now that they have eradicated any reference to R10s or this incident on their site, I guess that JL is just cutting losses and moving on. Yes, this type of thread causes a lot of side-taking and even name-calling and other internet behavior that detracts from the point. To me, however, the window dressing is not as important as the core issue and there is no way I will buy a Jena Labs product or any gear containing Jena Labs products because I won't do business with people who conduct their business in the way they THEMSELVES have done here and on their website.

They can screw it up too, of course we have seen cases, but just that it has not been proved yet to me, if they did I 100% agree with you...

About Alex, I feel that posting the repair in their website as an info of resurrecting an heapdhone, and showing the quality of his work, and with all the details he wish, was a good move for his business, but posting info here publicly is a no no in my book...and I even feel a little rather unethical, sorry to disagree with you...

Of course we all need to know who is good or bad, but I rather leave that to others to post it, not being a dealer or manufacturer in that same field, just a personal point of view, nothing else...and my personal ethics...

If JL did all what they say they did, I feel really sorry for the owner of those heapdhones, and trust me that I personally would press charges against them for the damages in the small claims court section, I would feel the same way you do, and I agree with all the members that took sides since the first post, now as I do not know the truth behind this, I rather refrain from believing a newbie, than a reputable company, unless I have more elements, whatever was exposed here is not a single fact, all words, that can be said by anybody, and i agree wiht you that the other side has not been very cooperative giving info neither, maybe they do not feel the need...

What would you think if instead of JL would be Ray Samuels??? Would you also believe him first??? Sorry I will not...


Now for jrosenth:

No of course not, everytime I have had a somewhat disatisfied customer trust me that at the end I have lost money, rather than making them pay, I preffer to pay them, all what they have invested in us, and sometimes more, to keep them at least satisfied in that regard...I feel that the custmer is always right, period...Fortunatelly for us, that do not happen to often to me at least, and honestly I have not gotten too many disatisfied customers, most of the times the ones I got, have been fully satisfied customers...with a couple of exceptions of course...

Names are confidential, of course, for me, and I do not feel Alex made anything wrong, except posting this public here, I would refrain from doing it, if he felt the need of that, that is his prerrogative...About the page I'm so lazy writting that probably I would have never written it...LOL...

 

[PITTM]

I pointed out pages ago how insane giving out the users name and details to an unassociated party(morph) was on Jena's part. Now they post it on their website. How on earth could anyone possibly consider buying something from a company that will post your full name on their website and complain about you. Every audiophile I know now knows full well to stay away from JenaLabs forever. The way she has handled the situation is just diabolically bad. Scott looks like a nice dude from his website though. lol.

fwiw i know that 99% of people here would not be scared to confront morph in real life. If i saw him at a meet I would tell him what a pos he was acting like in this thread. I would have no intention of starting a fight over it, but if he wanted to I would be fine with it as I am a pretty big athletic dude. The idea of saying "hey you tough guys wouldnt confront me in real life!" after acting like a total ******* jackass to many users on this site EXCLUSIVELY OVER THE INTERNET is pretty hilarious.

As I said earlier, name ONE other member of the trade company that would have posted the user in question's name. I can't. 0 other companies would have done it. 0 other companies would have such ridiculous prices for a crap product. IMO this makes the decision to not use jenalabs incredibly easy.

 

[kpeezy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif About Alex, I feel that posting the repair in their website as an info of resurrecting an heapdhone, and showing the quality of his work, and with all the details he wish, was a good move for his business, but posting info here publicly is a no no in my book...and I even feel a little rather unethical, sorry to disagree with you... [snip] Names are confidential, of course, for me, and I do not feel Alex made anything wrong, except posting this public here, I would refrain from doing it, if he felt the need of that, that is his prerrogative...About the page I'm so lazy writting that probably I would have never written it...LOL...

Alex didn't post this here.

 

[Morph201]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another point that you may consider, if Hirsch, or Tyll, or Dr. Meier, markl, or Voltron, or Jude, or Aaron, or Buze, or Jahn, or any other trusty old member come here with a complaint about any company, knowing their reputation we may assume that they are 100% right, but keep in mind that we never heard of that person before comming here just to expose his version of the facts, that IMO are somewhat a little hard to digest, and in a minute, everybody agree and jump in the accusatory wagon, trying to crucify JL....Guys not to be an ass, but why trusting a first poster so blindly, whitout knowing him first, not saying that he is lying but why not taking his post with grain of salt, and at least give the benefit of the doubt to JL... Everybody took a side before JL made any comment, after they posted their own version, everybody still took the same side, now they remove the info, and everybody is still on the same side, what bother asking then? They simply did what comon sense indicates, if nobody is interested in our version of the facts, why bother to offer them, believe what you want and period...!!!! Trust them that this issue will not affect their business a single bit, they have customers for years and years that trust them and their reputation, they may not have any other from here maybe, but what this represents in their business, numbers talking? Guys stop beating a dead horse, the let things settle, I think that everybody got what they wanted now...

Thanks Sov! At least there's a couple of people on here capable THINKING! I too found it somewhat "odd" that all this info (one side of course) would be taken at face value.

Boomana: I never asked for "sympathy" or chose to play the victim, if you intrepreted those words from my threads than that's result of your myopic viewpoint.

 

[Morph201]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM /img/forum/go_quote.gif I pointed out pages ago how insane giving out the users name and details to an unassociated party(morph) was on Jena's part. Now they post it on their website. How on earth could anyone possibly consider buying something from a company that will post your full name on their website and complain about you. Every audiophile I know now knows full well to stay away from JenaLabs forever. The way she has handled the situation is just diabolically bad. Scott looks like a nice dude from his website though. lol. fwiw i know that 99% of people here would not be scared to confront morph in real life. If i saw him at a meet I would tell him what a pos he was acting like in this thread. I would have no intention of starting a fight over it, but if he wanted to I would be fine with it as I am a pretty big athletic dude. The idea of saying "hey you tough guys wouldnt confront me in real life!" after acting like a total ******* jackass to many users on this site EXCLUSIVELY OVER THE INTERNET is pretty hilarious. As I said earlier, name ONE other member of the trade company that would have posted the user in question's name. I can't. 0 other companies would have done it. 0 other companies would have such ridiculous prices for a crap product. IMO this makes the decision to not use jenalabs incredibly easy.

Wow, you're a pretty big athletic dude? And what does that mean? Nothing. Trust me when I say that... Get a grip, get a life, and move on dimwit!

 

[PITTM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morph201 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, you're a pretty big athletic dude? And what does that mean? Nothing. Trust me when I say that... Get a grip, get a life, and move on dimwit!

Enough for you to send me the following pm apparently:

"I saw your thread... If you're serious about that, let me know..."

If you guys want to ban me for posting a PM, whatever. This was just too awesome.