[Audio Jester]

Just adding something to the fray...

The human brain follows similar principles as muscles... "use them or lose them" so to speak. I am sure if you got a CAT scan done while an experienced "headphile" listened to music and compared that to someone who "prefers ibuds" you would probably notice higher brain activity in the Aural sections of the brain. This relates to musicians too (for example Cellists, who have to listen carefully to hit the correct tone on a fretless instrument), but their ears are probably "tuned" to cellos... not headphones.

So relating back to the OP. Your friends may not be able to tell the difference, but if they started to critically listen to the headphones then after a while they will start to hear the difference. (also keep in mind that audiophiles strive to HEAR the difference.... bit of extra psychology there

)

The other point is volume. Quite often people attribute sound quality to sound quantity. Ibuds and cheaper headphones can give the impression of higher volume because of the distortion in the speaker and such (like turning your amp to 11

) This relates to bass also. Most people think that bass is great when it rumbles your chest cavity (from time to time that's true

), but this does not mean that it is clear and precise.... just loud.

...interesting point to ponder: Get a Cellist to listen to a solo cello piece on your headphones and ask them which headphone sounds more "real".

 

[nadavnaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audio Jester /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... This relates to musicians too (for example Cellists, who have to listen carefully to hit the correct tone on a fretless instrument), but their ears are probably "tuned" to cellos... not headphones...

I belive a high percentage of audiophiles are musicians. Learning to differentiate between different instruments and voices at the same time is a musicians quality, as an audiophiles one... So it all has to do with one another. Of course, recognizing notes (as a chello\trombome player would have to do, since there aren't any markings that tell you what note you're playing) isn't exactly the same, but they're interlacing qualities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopsang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does the law of diminishing returns apply in this hobby? does $500+ translate to a $500+ musical experience? Im not sure if it does for me, and in some way Im very glad of my "ignorance", or lead ears, or whatever its called. Not putting anyone down, i applaud all those in search of sonic excellence. Good luck to the rest of you guys, in the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy my el-cheapo-headphones, and smile like i robbed the bank.

You said "Someone who's gotta have 500$ headphones, wouldn't necessarily enjoy them more than I enjoy my 50$ headphones." Meaning if you're not sq sensitive, you'll be able to enjoy cheaper headphones just as much.

I believe that's wrong. People with highly sensitive ears, can enjoy music more than others, it just demands more, but the limit of music appreciation is higher. To Appreciate the many instruments playing at the same time, being able to differentiate between them, enjoying the bass guitar as an instrument being played in harmony instead of some bloated fuzzy warm feeling in your chest in some JAY-Z song. All these things which require expensive equipment, and sensitive\good hearing, add up to a nicer and deeper listening experience.]

I'm not saying necessarily that all 500$ will sound good to you. But hi-fi equipment to hi-fi listeners, is more pleasurable than 50$ headphones to 50$ listeners.

 

[Audio Jester]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadavnaz /img/forum/go_quote.gif I belive a high percentage of audiophiles are musicians. Learning to differentiate between different instruments and voices at the same time is a musicians quality, as an audiophiles one... So it all has to do with one another. Of course, recognizing notes (as a chello\trombome player would have to do, since there aren't any markings that tell you what note you're playing) isn't exactly the same, but they're interlacing qualities.

That is true, but often the musician's ears are tuned to pitch (in general) and are not always critically listening to the 'sound' of the music, but more of what is being played. A friend of mine is a fantastic guitarist and he can pick notes out of a fast riff infinitely better than me. Whereas I can hear the difference between my headphones coming direct from my PC verus the sound via my amp and he cannot.

Thinking about it a different way... people are very rarely born with the ability to distinguish pitch (e.g. in singing) and must practice to be able to get that fine control that professionals have.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopsang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does the law of diminishing returns apply in this hobby? does $500+ translate to a $500+ musical experience? Im not sure if it does for me, and in some way Im very glad of my "ignorance", or lead ears, or whatever its called.

Definitely, a $20K stereo does not sound 100 times better than some KSC-75s plugged into a flash DAP.

The 'sweet-spot' does vary a lot though, usually under $500 for cans.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audio Jester /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thinking about it a different way... people are very rarely born with the ability to distinguish pitch (e.g. in singing) and must practice to be able to get that fine control that professionals have.

Actually, a study was done to determine how perfect pitch occurred. Three factors were identified. 1) There has to be a genetic predisposition 2) There has to be exposure to music, preferably active, such as piano lessons (as opposed to passive listening) and 3) the musical exposure must occur during a critical developmental period (roughly 7 years of age). If any of these three conditions are not met, a person cannot develop perfect pitch (even if the genetic predisposition is present).

 

[Audio Jester]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, a study was done to determine how perfect pitch occurred. Three factors were identified. 1) There has to be a genetic predisposition 2) There has to be exposure to music, preferably active, such as piano lessons (as opposed to passive listening) and 3) the musical exposure must occur during a critical developmental period (roughly 7 years of age). If any of these three conditions are not met, a person cannot develop perfect pitch (even if the genetic predisposition is present).

Cool, ....I wonder how many hyper-competitive parents of the future are going to get that gene spliced into their children. .....and later scientists discover that the same gene also causes a predisposition to becoming a psychopath.

 

[Ethan211]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelamvr6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You need better friends, friends are definitely an acquired taste!

What a great quote, and so true.

The difference between my E2's and the ibuds was night and day, so I can hardly believe anyone would claim ibuds sound better than your gear; hell, I bet these friggin' things sounds better than those most-contemptible ibuds:

 

[nadavnaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audio Jester /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is true, but often the musician's ears are tuned to pitch (in general) and are not always critically listening to the 'sound' of the music, but more of what is being played. A friend of mine is a fantastic guitarist and he can pick notes out of a fast riff infinitely better than me. Whereas I can hear the difference between my headphones coming direct from my PC verus the sound via my amp and he cannot. Thinking about it a different way... people are very rarely born with the ability to distinguish pitch (e.g. in singing) and must practice to be able to get that fine control that professionals have.

Before reading, beware. It's long, way to long. And written in horrible English (I'm a 15 year old dude from Israel, who's to blame here )


There are a couple of mixed up definitions here. (I don't really know how they're called in English, but I'll just state them.)

Absolute pitch hearing= Determining a specific pitch. Meaning, you can tell what a note that's being played is, just by hearing it, with no reference point what-so-ever. Meaning, if you don't hear a piece of music for 5 days, and don't have any other pitch-height to "compare" to, you can tell what the note is. How this may come useful? Just showing off, and tuning instruments to exact pitches with no reference point (for example, a keyboard to tell you the base note, meaning, it's a pitch-reference point)

There's also Relative hearing, which is what I personally have. Meaning, if you let me hear one note, and tell me "That's an A" (or what ever note it is), then play some random melody, I'll be able to state the names of the notes being played, and of course play them, by hearing and noticing the frequency differences between the different notes. It's not a mathematical thing of course. just like a... "Sense". But it's more of an acquirable one, though it is something you're born with, it's more "upgradable". I personally can work out different notes being played in one single chord on a piano for example. It's useful for tuning instruments like guitars, but you do need a certain reference point to compare to if you want your guitar to be tuned right relative to other instruments.

Both those similar yet different qualities also make you suffer. Just like every audiophile suffers from bad audio quality, relative\absolute hearers suffer a lot more when hearing a guitar of tune, singers being out of key. Relative hearers only hear it if they heard a different reference point before, absolute hearers can suffer from solo artists as well.

Just like audiophilia, it's a gift and a curse.

I believe most audiophiles, especially those who crave for detail, instrument separation and soundstage (and an XL wallet to get those stuff), are probably musicians or at least have higher potential to being one. They feel the urge to hear the different instruments, the different vocal pitches of two singers singing together, enjoying the music to the last bit of it, appreciating the tiny nuances... Not just a big bloat of harmonies and some singer over it.

Some crave colored and warmer sound, and care less about detail and instrument separation. A different aspect of music appreciation, more of a physical pleasure than a musical one I'd say, though detail and a sound signatures that makes your ears go WOW is indeed a good combination. Meanwhile I'm just 15, and live in Israel. A "You buy it, you keep it!" Country (Plus, bloated prices, and I'm just a kiddo) so as much as I crave audio perfection, I settle with er-6i's, which to my friends seem pretty weird, 120$ for a pair of headphones? damn.


So... my "shorter" reply to -Audio Jester-
Though having a pitch-sensitive ear and an audiophilic sense don't necessarily have to go hand in hand, they're defiantly interlacing qualities (or curses hehe...). Some aspects of musical hearing have a closer connection to audiphilia, and some don't. So it's not entirely true to say they can't come hand in hand (maybe I just took your single case with your friend and made it look global? P: I enjoyed writing anyway)



And as to the thread scenario, I'd say yeah... Audiophilia is an acquired quality. But you do have to be born with that craving. If you wouldn't, you'd see no one wearing ibuds and saying "steve jobs sure knows his music!"


End of word-vomit

 

[Hi-Finthen]

Greatly detailed post nadavnaz, motivated by Audio Jesters fine contrubution to my understanding, further fleshing out my supporting thoughts in post #79 ...


I love reading this stuff

 

[Audio Jester]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadavnaz /img/forum/go_quote.gif And as to the thread scenario, I'd say yeah... Audiophilia is an acquired quality. But you do have to be born with that craving. If you wouldn't, you'd see no one wearing ibuds and saying "steve jobs sure knows his music!"

...had to condense that quote a litte

. Anyhow, very valid point you made. There's always someone at the party who's a stickler for definitions

.

Harping back to my original point and with regards to the OP.
Get those "friends" of yours and "School 'dem fools". Because if you have anyone who is more impressed by iBuds than .....well... a tin with a piece of string attached to it, then you have problems. Particularly for your musician friend. I feel that any musician that wants to get serious about recording (mainly studio stuff in the case) would really benefit from critical listening skills. You might save them from buying a MetalZone pedal.

Remember the human mind is very malleable, so with some effort they too can enjoy our wallet-breaking hobby.

 

[nadavnaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi-Finthen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Greatly detailed post nadavnaz, motivated by Audio Jesters fine contrubution to my understanding, further fleshing out my supporting thoughts in post #79 ... I love reading this stuff

Thanks man : D

Glad to see I could get a message across even though I'm kind of struggling with "Audiophile English" hehe.

I went back and read your post. Good stuff there! Different posts build up to one another in a really nice way...

 

[nadavnaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audio Jester /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...had to condense that quote a litte . Anyhow, very valid point you made. There's always someone at the party who's a stickler for definitions .

Hehe, I did kind of over-write that post didn't I...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audio Jester /img/forum/go_quote.gif I feel that any musician that wants to get serious about recording (mainly studio stuff in the case) would really benefit from critical listening skills. You might save them from buying a MetalZone pedal. Remember the human mind is very malleable, so with some effort they too can enjoy our wallet-breaking hobby.

You do have a point there.

Musicians, talented or not, shouldn't give up on good gear. As a recording musician, it's actually a very important aspect.

But I'm afraid that unless he was actually born as a gifted musician, or "True" audio lover (one who appreciates music to a greater depth, but doesn't necessarily create music) buying expensive audio gear wouldn't make the difference. If the need doesn't come from inside, than buying quality equipment is useless.

Though letting him try out some better equipment might just light the fire...

 

[Audio Jester]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadavnaz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Though letting him try out some better equipment might just light the fire...

It will certainly lighten his wallet

 

[nadavnaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audio Jester /img/forum/go_quote.gif It will certainly lighten his wallet

 

[mitchb]

It can be just like anyjthing else. There is an inherent likiking for music in man buit in some people it's stronger.