[Wmcmanus]

Quite honestly, I think the whole bunch of you are being extremely unfair here. I mean, really! Someone yells "Troll" and then a bunch of lemmings line up to join in the insult parade without anyone ever bothering to check out the guy's post history. See it hurts, doesn't it? Being called lemmings, that is. Don't really mean it, just trying to prove a point.

Well, as it turns out, the one and only post (besides what you see in this thread) that he's made about the V-Moda Vibes so happens to be the same one that was quickly cited here as further evidence of his trolling. And as that particular accuser correctly pointed out, this post was made just a minute before this thread was started.

Ever think that he just really likes the Vibes and finds something special about them, and thus, after contributing to that other ongoing thread, he figured he would make sure his post got some extra attention that in his mind was warrented? He then did a cut and paste to start this thread, only to be accused (and quickly seconded, thirded, and twenty-fifth'ed) of being a troll. Someone has even gone as far as to say not to worry because people like him get banned quickly anyway. I'm paraphrasing here, intentionally not quoting anyone directly because I don't have any issues with y'all expressing your opinons.

Granted his initial post was a bit over the top (by some standards) but certainly not "offensive" in any way. More to the point, he was expressing his view (no matter how boldly) that he believes the Vibes represent something new in the marketplace. If you don't agree, fine. Argue that point. But don't start screaming "Troll" at the first instance simply because he's a relatively new member and thus an easy target.

Furthermore, when I say over the top "by some standards" he clearly has not violated certainly any of those that he's agreed to abide by within our rules and terms of use, a link to which is provided in the lower right-hand corner of each and every page on Head-Fi.

Think I'm being harsh in my group criticism? Check out his posting history, which you can do for any member whom you believe has been trolling, by clicking on his username and then "see more posts by (username)." See here, and feel free to analyze his posting history and personal character to your collective hearts contentment:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/search...archid=3327807

I've just glanced briefly but don't see anything alarming. When I think of a troll, I think of a couple of snenarios: 1) someone who is always, and I mean always, confrontational, and seems to get a kick out of stirring things up just for the fun of it, and 2) someone who has one purpose and one purpose only for being here at Head-Fi, and that is to promote something for his or her personal gain, be it direct or indirect, but this is really a "shill" as opposed to a troll. For example, someone who at every turn, goes out of his way to push one particular amp manufactuer's products and is totally relentless in doing so.

But in this fella's post history, I see him commenting in one way or another about a lot of different headphones and IEMs. In fact, I dare say he probably has a lot more experience and insight with the IEMs that might compete with the Vibes than a good number of his accusers on this thread do! Something to consider, guys.

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone in particular, but I do see a gang mentality on this thread. Where deserved, that can be quite healthy and most helpful to the moderating staff. But this is what the "report post" feature is all about.

What I see here, instead, is someone who for whatever reasons (and at this point I can only assume they have to do with his listening enjoyment rather than personal gain) had really gotten a "buzz" out of one particular product and thus felt that his views should get more attention than they otherwise would with an isolated positive comment about that product deep within another thread.

I've done this sort of thing myself, so perhaps that's why I'm a little more sensitive to his situation than others have been here. No, I've never (to my knowledge and memory) declared a product to represent a new paradigm in headphone listening (which is, in effect, what he's done here), but I've never felt that way about any one product that others weren't already well aware of in terms of the attributes that I was able to identify! But I have cut and pasted certain posts that I've made, when, upon clicking "Submit Reply", I instantly had second thoughts and felt that my response was worthy of its own thread. That's a decision that each of us should be free to make.

Ok, my lecture is almost over. I really feel bad that I've had to go on like this and I don't want to give anyone the impression that the moderators don't take trolling and shilling seriously. Far from it! This is one of our primary concerns and we're in the process of revising the rules and terms of use to imporove our definitions of each.

Nor am I saying that "I'm right and you're all wrong" because mine is just one opinion which obviously doesn't square with many of yours'. Yet, since I'd need a lot more evidence that I can see in this thread or his posting history before I could take any of the actions that have been suggested here. Thus, this thread will remain open (at least for the time being). Of course, if nothing productive comes of it, I suppose we'll eventually have to close it. But as I see it, that wouldn't be for anything that the original poster has done "wrong" as such. Over the top? Maybe, probably... Ok, ya, it was over the top! But not in violation of any of our rules, or even the spirit of those rules.

Again, I think the best way to deal with this kind of thread is to counter the arguments presented by the original poster by sharing your own experiences and demonstrating the weaknesses of his arguments.

Finally, keep in mind that none of us gets a kick out of making this kind of post. It takes time and could possibly cause hard feelings (although it's certainly not intended to). It's just that at times, for sake of clarity, our position as moderators needs to be made known on these kinds of issues. I hope that I'm speaking for every one of us, but truly can only speak for myself. What I'm getting at is that in terms of our "policy" on trolls, they're innocent until proven guilty... even if they have already been executed by the membership.

Carry on.

 

[jamato8]

When I read the post last night all I thought was here is someone that really enjoys what he is hearing. I don't know where everyone else is getting their information but I certainly don't see it.

I really like the XTRA X-1 and some don't. If I liked it better than most anything I have heard and I am crazy about sound and nothing has been as enjoyable to listen to how is that inflammatory? Well anyway, enjoy the music it is purely a subjective experience.

 

[flamerz]

The initial over the top product pushing along with this post, and this post are the contributors to my belief. The last two just have some explicitly implied insults going on, just because people disagree with some of his points and use evidence to prove him wrong. While his rebuttles contain evidence, they also contain lots and lots of egging on flames.

 

[jamato8]

Well I see that as his opinion. On the headphones not being the best that is subjective depending up the needs and the person. I love my speaker system and for well recorded music I find it more 3D and to have better staging than live but now it is in storage so the best I have is the ear thingies. I still don't find his posts to inflame but maybe I don't worry so much about it and I can see someone elses point, though not all the time and only if I am really in the mood and they have been talking really nice to me. :^)

 

[kramer5150]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeluiz22 /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for "trolling," I come on every once in a while to read the forums. See you all. It's been an enlightening coversation.

No it hasn't... please go away.

 

[silverrain]

....

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamerz /img/forum/go_quote.gif The initial over the top product pushing along with this post, and this post are the contributors to my belief. The last two just have some explicitly implied insults going on, just because people disagree with some of his points and use evidence to prove him wrong. While his rebuttles contain evidence, they also contain lots and lots of egging on flames.

I flatly disagree. I've read both examples you've cited, both on their own and in the context of the entire thread. He's simply reacting to the hostility that he was instantly greeting with in this thread, and quickly got piled on with.

His use of quote marks around "cheap" was in response to the attack that he felt was implicit in the post he was responding to. He reemphasized his point that cheap or not cheap, he felt the Vibes did something in their design that no other IEM did. Try to look at it from his perspective, as someone who belives that he's "on to something" and is excited about sharing his views that the Vibes introduce something new to the market, and then he gets attacked and ganged up on. So now he's just defending his position in an honest way, and then returning the insult as a parting shot, and not much of an insult at that. Basically he's saying that you all should have slightly thicker skin and be able to deal with opinions that don't represent the majority view.

In the second post you've cited, I see more of the same. He disagrees and reiterates (now holding them in his hands and lookng at them) what he sees and believes in terms of their design.

What you mean by "explicitly implied" is beyond my jumbo shrimp oxymoronic imagination. Don't blame someone who has been greeted with a basket full of eggs in his face and a gallon of gas to wash it off with as being an egg and flame thrower.

 

[Sordel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Granted his initial post was a bit over the top (by some standards) but certainly not "offensive" in any way. More to the point, he was expressing his view (no matter how boldly) that he believes the Vibes represent something new in the marketplace. If you don't agree, fine. Argue that point. But don't start screaming "Troll" at the first instance simply because he's a relatively new member and thus an easy target.

Quoted for truth. I read the original post before it attracted all the bile and thought about adding that everything that the poster liked about the Vibes was also true of the Bose IEs. Then I figured that the point wasn't really worth making because the same is true of pretty much all earbuds. I'm willing to believe that the Vibes are good of their kind, but it seemed to me that the OP's statement's were simply ill-informed and unlikely to get much attention either way.

 

[Aar0n]

I love my Vibes, but there are some people who IEMs just aren't right for, and the OP has no reason to burn them because he loves his pair. (Assuming he actually has one.) He needs to understand that they're still IEMs, so a seal is both beneficial and necessary, and that open-air, or "open-back" headpones aren't always superior. Ironically enough, the Vibes aren't actually open back; there's a small vent on the same side as the tips.

 

[Febs]

With all due respect, wcmcmanus, I disagree. It's true that there were a couple of negative comments posted in the 2nd and 3rd posts of this thread. However, there was also some attempt at legitimate discussion, which led to this exchange:

Quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by cmirza You mean they use dynamic drivers instead of balance armature drivers? V-Modas aren't the only IEMs that use dynamic drivers, Shure e2c, and just about every cheap IEM (EP630, CX300, FX33, EX71, etc...) are dynamic drivers. No. I mean that they have are open-back, unlike all any "cheap" or non-"cheap" OEM. Man, what a bunch of polyannas on this nerdsite. Thank God I visit infrequently. Flame away.

I don't see how that last statement could be viewed as anything other than trolling, especially coming as it did in response to a perfectly legitimate and reasonable attempt at discussion of the subject matter of the thread.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif With all due respect, wcmcmanus, I disagree. It's true that there were a couple of negative comments posted in the 2nd and 3rd posts of this thread. However, there was also some attempt at legitimate discussion, which led to this exchange: I don't see how that last statement could be viewed as anything other than trolling, especially coming as it did in response to a perfectly legitimate and reasonable attempt at discussion of the subject matter of the thread.

Ok, I can see your point. But at the time he responded in this manner, there were 4 posts made by 4 other members, 3 of which were attacks on him, led with the "do you ever wonder what it would sound like to die?" cooment that completely caught me offgaurd and seemed bizzare until it was followed with "in a burning flame?" The third post then (essentially) accused him of being a troll and decried "all these sensationalist... threads" etc. The other post prior to his response expressed disagreement with his stated listening impressions of the e2c but did not acknowledge any of the points he had made about the Vibes. Although negative, at least it wasn't a flame.

Could he have reacted differently? Sure. Would that have helped to set a different tone to the thread? Perhaps, but I'm not convinced of that. Once someone gets the troll label, there isn't much he can do because the minute he tries to make a legitimate point, of course everyone thinks he's egging them on and throwing flames and such.

Were this a long established member, then I would expect either: 1) a more balanced opening post to begin with (because he would have reason to know of our sensitivities, and also that it actually helps your argument when you present it in a more objective manner), or 2) a more calm response, even if he felt he was attacked (and in this case there is no doubt that he was attacked) because you don't ever win over people by fighting back with them.

In other words (regarding my 2nd point above), he could have said, "That may be true, but I think you're missing my point. I was referring to the Vibes as being open backed, and not that they have dynamic drivers. Sorry if that wasn't clear." But given how the responses were going up until that point, can we really expect this of him?

I want to make one point clear. As I said towards the end of my long post last night, I may well be wrong and he may have ulterior motives (although I highly doubt this). This is only my opinion. No doubt, he came off as quite strong in his opinion that the Vibes were world beaters relative to all IEMs. At least he felt that they "win" with regard to what he believed in terms of them being open (although they really are not, in fact, open, he legitimately believed that they were).

So I can defintely see how that sort of bravado could set some people off, especially in light of the fact that he didn't condition his enthusiasm in any way. Yet, he's under no obligation to do so! That's perhaps that cultural norm among Head-Fi's regulars, but since he just pops in and out, there would be no reason to believe (in my mind) that he felt that he was doing anything "wrong" or inflamatory in creating this thread.

Seems to me that when you begin (right off the bat) to accuse someone of being a "troll", there should be an element of intent that you're able to establish as part of your "case" against him. Otherwise, you're the ones who are starting the fight, not him! From there, he's just responding. In this case, he didn't help matters by getting angry right away, but by then he had already aquired the troll label, so it probably wouldn't have mattered what he had to say for himself.

Does it really matter? Probably not too much in the grand scheme of things, but at some point a lot of new members will become gun shy and Head-Fi will lose some of the friendliness that it has long been known for.

 

[GlendaleViper]

I found the Vibes to be the most comfortable IEMs I've yet tried. That, combined with the semi-open "ported" design made for a nice, airy presentation - yes, to the detriment of some isolation.

There was a comment made earlier that the only reason to wear IEMs is for the isolation they provide which, if true, would make every open IEM/bud on the market obsolete. Obviously this isn't the only reason folks like IEMs (size and efficiency are of primary concern for many).

Either way, I don't think the Vibe is necessarily the IEM that will make "IEM haters" change their mind. I recently sold my pair of Vibes simply because, like every IEM I've ever tried, they are horribly uncomfortable. I just do not like having an earphone crammed into my ear canals. Are they comfortable by general IEM standards? Absolutely. Not enough to get me to wear them though.

 

[zeluiz22]

I want to thank the few thoughtful readers for their defense. Yes, of course I got a little defensive after you responded to what I believed was an optimistic and positive post with the words, "do you know what it feels like to die?" (or something like that...)

The sad part is, the point of my post has been lost in the vitriol. I never put down people who like IEM's; I did the inverse- I said that these are the anti-IEM IEM. I listed to them on the subway today and just absolutely love them.

Again, I have owned mqny IEM's and never liked them. I paid five hundred for the e5c' only to sell them on ebay for less. Ety's (from ER4P down) were never for me. Super-Fi Pro's for me wre Super-Fi No's.

One difference in sound between open-back and closed-back phones is that open phones tend to create the illusion (because soundstage is always an illusion) of a wider stage. That's why I like the Vibes.

I sat back and waited to see if anyone had the intellectual honesty to point out that every review of these Vibes (including the review by one of your Supremi on THIS SITE) describes them as "semi-open." With all the research some of you did on my posting history, I was waiting for an honest word on these phones.

I was also waiting for someone to at least admit they'd never heard or even handled these Vibes. Nothing; just vinegar.

Finaly, on "trolling." In your lexicon, if trolling means reading posts far more often than you submit posts, you got me. I'm a troll. I'm not sure why that's bad, but this posting culture really isn't me.

If trolling is posting negative and inflammatory comments about others, then I ask all the "troll accusers" to re-read their own posts, as well as the overwhelming weight of this thread.

I have always wondered why people get so nasty on some blogs. I wonder if it's the acidic response of those who spend their real lives dodging adult and measured confrontation.

I know that I sometimes join in on blogs discussing extremely painful and sensitive social and political issues, and find those to be conducted with infinitely more class and tolerance for opposing views than many (not nearly all) but many of you on this site regarding, of all things, headphones.

So, until my next trolling offense, adieu, adiieu, adieu. I have work to do.

 

[TheDarkTrumpet]

The largest reason why I don't like IEMs is the feel. While they can sound pretty good, I find the feeling they give my ears and stuff disturbing. All that and also it probably blocks some wax too

Each to their own though, if people like em, wear em.

 

[zeluiz22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkTrumpet /img/forum/go_quote.gif The largest reason why I don't like IEMs is the feel. While they can sound pretty good, I find the feeling they give my ears and stuff disturbing. All that and also it probably blocks some wax too Each to their own though, if people like em, wear em.

I too have had that reaction. These however are the smallest and lightest I've used. You really forget that they are there.