[JaZZ]

I‘ve read this thread from the very beginning and I think some things might be being taken out of context.

There is noise generated by the MScaler itself which is attenuated internally but some is still transmitted over the BNC connection.

Using grounded power supplies can make this worse as unattenuated RFI can bypass the BNC and also enter the DAC via ground, and then possibly even exit the DAC and loop back to the MScaler as well. This is the worst scenario of all.

A ground lifted supply, like the stock supply, can help dampen these loops as they will be attenuatuated by a longer high impedance loop via neutral. A battery Power supply detached from its charger will prevent these loops altogether, avoiding the worst case situation.

But apart from avoiding loops, power supplies won’t do anything for the more limited RFI Generated by the MScaler itself and transmitted directly via the BNC.

At least that’s what I have taken from the multiple discussions about this issue.
So if I have interpreted it correctly, ferrited cables still help with the BNC transmitted noise. That isn’t to say that non-DIY BNC options are not grossly over priced. But let’s not get that confused with helpful safety advice of avoiding putting too much voltage into your loved devices when exploring battery power supply options.

Rob's statements say nothing else but that you can renounce ferrited dual-BNC cables between M Scaler and DAC if you feed the M Scaler with battery power, hence break the loop via ground connection. This explicitly addresses the RFI from the M Scaler reaching the DAC via dual-BNC cables.

As AndrewOld has just quoted (and myself a few pages before):

But if you want to almost completely isolate the M scaler from the DAC then use a battery power bank (so long as you site it correctly) - then the loop impedance becomes very high, and then the BNC cables no longer have an impact on SQ as no current can now flow as there is no longer a loop. Is this something I do in practice - no - the difference isn't large enough to bother with charging batteries. At the end of the day I just want to simply enjoy my music more, and I don't need to go to silly lengths to do that.

The M scaler is helped by using a battery, as it eliminates the 2GHz ground return currents, solving at a stroke the BNC cabling issue.

In short: The RFI travelling through the dual-BNC cables' ground connection is blocked if there's no loop via power-supply ground connection.

Now that's the theory, and I would like to have it confirmed by users who have both Wave cables and power banks at their disposal. This to explore the possibility of further improving the sound with ferrites on the M Scaler's power cable. I don't like the idea of charging batteries on a daily basis and am skeptical towards leaving them plugged in during listening to music, as that would create the loop again that should be avoided – as I see it. I would have chosen the OptoDX system if I could live with batteries, but the Wave cables serve me well.

In this context I don't like Andrew's repeated attacks against Nick, who is virtually doomed to stay silent. They're absolutely unjustified, every Head-Fier can choose her-/himself if she/he prefers this solution despite the higher price.

 

[ZappaMan]

 

[The Jester]

Thanks for the detailed explanation,
Trying to logically optimise a recent upgrade to M Scaler + Qutest DAC and so far so good,
I thought the USB cable from the PC was a weak link and swapped it out for a Nordost Blue Heaven cable for a noticeable improvement,
Now Ripped CD files on the PC sound better to my ears than the CD on a Cambridge CXC transport via optical cable,
already have a power conditioner feeding two filter boards which in turn have three isolated banks ( 4/3/1) And have the Qutest plugged into one, the M Scaler into the other, so decided to have a listen to the two via optical with the dual BNC’s removed, admittedly only at 176.4 and thought it sounded as good or slightly better via BNC at 176.4 with both cables reconnected, so last upgrade would be replacing the supplied BNC cables with some better quality ones, before that next step I tried a couple of “standard” 1.5 metre cables and again to my ears a slight improvement so new cables could be 1.5 instead of 1 metre...
in the back of my mind though is a pair of quality 1.5 metre cables or a pair of wave cables so just trying to evaluate if my setup as it stands is suffering from any RF issues ...
Thanks again for making things clearer ...


@ ZappaMan
some good music an unexpected bonus ..

 

[GreenBow]

Thanks. I was aware of this when ordering a couple of these units, which work very well with my M Scaler, but they do get hot.

romaz mentions in the post I included a link to just how well these units work with his TT2, which I believe draws more current than the M Scaler.

You're very welcome.

Thank you for pointing out this power cleaner to me. Not sure I'd buy one, but it's nice to know.

 

[iamoneagain]

Rob's statements say nothing else but that you can renounce ferrited dual-BNC cables between M Scaler and DAC if you feed the M Scaler with battery power, hence break the loop via ground connection. This explicitly addresses the RFI from the M Scaler reaching the DAC via dual-BNC cables.

As AndrewOld has just quoted (and myself a few pages before):






In short: The RFI travelling through the dual-BNC cables' ground connection is blocked if there's no loop via power-supply ground connection.

Now that's the theory, and I would like to have it confirmed by users who have both Wave cables and power banks at their disposal. This to explore the possibility of further improving the sound with ferrites on the M Scaler's power cable. I don't like the idea of charging batteries on a daily basis and am skeptical towards leaving them plugged in during listening to music, as that would create the loop again that should be avoided – as I see it. I would have chosen the OptoDX system if I could live with batteries, but the Wave cables serve me well.

In this context I don't like Andrew's repeated attacks against Nick, who is virtually doomed to stay silent. They're absolutely unjustified, every Head-Fier can choose her-/himself if she/he prefers this solution despite the higher price.

When you use the battery, you just pull the power plug out of the back and then plug back in when done. Nothing to it.

I thought about getting Wave cables after my experiments with trying the battery but I can’t justify the cost. Battery is simple enough and the improvement is subtle. Plus I could easily live with the stock power supply. You can hear the changes when switching but your brain quickly adjusts and the mscaler already sounds wonderful with stock.

I just wanted to see what all this RFI talk was all about. I think it’s overblown. I’m sure it will said because I haven’t tried the Wave cables or the Opto DX, but the battery was a nice cheaper way to get an idea and I think I’m good with my setup.

 

[STR-1]

You're very welcome.

Thank you for pointing out this power cleaner to me. Not sure I'd buy one, but it's nice to know.

Not to steer discussion too far off topic, but these are very useful units to have. I do have a 15v/13.5v on order, but the 13.5v/12v unit I already have and am using with the M Scaler can also be used with a variety of popular lower power devices, such as OPTO.DX, EtherREGEN, tx-USBultra etc, with which they will raise the performance of whatever supply is feeding them (PP2 or 5, SR4 etc). You’ve just got to be able to feed in at least 1v more than the pre-regulation voltage, but not too much more or you will get heat dissipation issues.

 

[N Quarter]

I finally got around to (trying) connecting my TV to my Mscaler with my Oyaide optical cable. First problem was the cable does not seem to snap into place when I push it into the Mscaler. So it just seems to be sitting there, very loose, and I don’t feel comfortable that it is even connected. Not sure why this is, because when I push this same cable into my old Denon receiver, it clicks into the socket with a nice snap. When I select optical 2 on the Mscaler I get a fluttering noise, no real sound at all, and I hit the video button so it turned white. I cycled through a bunch of buttons, and nothing changed so I gave up, EPIC FAIL. To be clear, I DO get sound from my TV playing through the Denon, so it is not the TV, or cable.

 

[JaZZ]

When you use the battery, you just pull the power plug out of the back and then plug back in when done. Nothing to it.

I thought about getting Wave cables after my experiments with trying the battery but I can’t justify the cost. Battery is simple enough and the improvement is subtle. Plus I could easily live with the stock power supply. You can hear the changes when switching but your brain quickly adjusts and the mscaler already sounds wonderful with stock.

I just wanted to see what all this RFI talk was all about. I think it’s overblown. I’m sure it will said because I haven’t tried the Wave cables or the Opto DX, but the battery was a nice cheaper way to get an idea and I think I’m good with my setup.

Of course that's how one can see it as well. I'm just satisfied with the Wave Storm and perceive the effect as worth the money. No regret and no wish to go back to stock cables, even with the battery option. And who knows, maybe there's some benefit from a filtering dual-BNC cable even with a broken loop!

Note that Rob also uses Wave cables at home and not a battery, so I'm not alone with my «irrational» approach.

 

[naynay]

With all this cable talk to reduce RF between M Scaler and Dac I made my own cables after some testing of a few ferrite cores over a period of time.
All parts of the shelf DIY cable @ £200.

 

[coopdog]

Of course that's how one can see it as well. I'm just satisfied with the Wave Storm and perceive the effect as worth the money. No regret and no wish to go back to stock cables, even with the battery option. And who knows, maybe there's some benefit from a filtering dual-BNC cable even with a broken loop!

Note that Rob also uses Wave cables at home and not a battery, so I'm not alone with my «irrational» approach.

Hi all,

I’ve been watching this back and forth about cables and batteries. Wouldn’t a simple null test between stock bnc cables and any other cable be useful in seeing the effect the different cables would have in relation to the stock cables? I would do it myself, but I don’t have the measuring equipment needed.
If someone could do this test we would all be able to use the results to explain why Nick’s cables “sound” different from other cables.
Hopefully, someone will be able to do this test and we can move past this cable conundrum.
Cheers

 

[jarnopp]

Not to steer discussion too far off topic, but these are very useful units to have. I do have a 15v/13.5v on order, but the 13.5v/12v unit I already have and am using with the M Scaler can also be used with a variety of popular lower power devices, such as OPTO.DX, EtherREGEN, tx-USBultra etc, with which they will raise the performance of whatever supply is feeding them (PP2 or 5, SR4 etc). You’ve just got to be able to feed in at least 1v more than the pre-regulation voltage, but not too much more or you will get heat dissipation issues.

I just ordered the 15/13.5 (custom selection) as well for TT2. Is that how you are planning to use it?

 

[STR-1]

I just ordered the 15/13.5 (custom selection) as well for TT2. Is that how you are planning to use it?

I do have a TT2 that I am half-heartedly trying to sell, so I could try it out with that, but I have really ordered for use with the M Scaler. At 15v pre-regulation it should run a little cooler from the PP5’s 16v output (smaller drop-down voltage), and with output at 13.5v it will be nearer than my 12v unit to the 15v that many feel is the M Scaler’s optimum.

 

[HumanMedia]

With all this cable talk to reduce RF between M Scaler and Dac I made my own cables after some testing of a few ferrite cores over a period of time.
All parts of the shelf DIY cable @ £200.

Thanks for the inspiration. PLEASE share what components you used. There is surprisingly little DIY talk here and there should be more especially around ferrited cables, which really are not too hard to make. Anyone who has done their own please chime in and say what Ferrites, cables and BNC connectors work best for them especially if they have used different materials and compared.

People who don’t have the skills or inclination can just buy pre made cables or do with the stock cables but there should be a wealth of empirical findings here for those who simply want make a connecting cable for themselves.

 

[iamoneagain]

So I’ve done more testing with battery and found I prefer the stock power supply over poweradd at 12v. But at 16v, the Poweradd wins. There is a risk but newest poweradd runs almost exactly at 16v and mscaler has a tolerance up to 18v. And saw most devices have +-1v with no effect in order to handle any fluctuations.

 

[kennyb123]

So I’ve done more testing with battery and found I prefer the stock power supply over poweradd at 12v. But at 16v, the Poweradd wins. There is a risk but newest poweradd runs almost exactly at 16v and mscaler has a tolerance up to 18v. And saw most devices have +-1v with no effect in order to handle any fluctuations.

I found that I preferred the HMS at 15v over 14v even though the latter was accomplished via an additional stage of regulation.