[AndrewOld]

This is unrealistic for two reasons:
1) No manufacturer can account for all external issues (connections, power, placement, upstream and downstream equipment, the room - can you imagine speaker makers being held to this standard?
2) Whatever manufacturers do so to solve potential issues (like Rob with the power supply) people will go to crazy lengths to modify it in an attempt to improve it and swear up and down it’s better…until the next mod or tweak or new component.

So, everyone has to draw their own line toward audio nervosa with their own ears, budget and use cases.

But the DAVE is not an arbitrary upstream product from a different manufacturer. Chord make and Rob designed both the M Scaler and the DAVE so it is reasonable to expect them to specify, indeed arguably even supply, an optimum way of connecting them. How else were all the critical listening tests and design work conducted? When the Blu2 came out, there was an issue with RF to which Rob suggested a solution involving very modestly priced clip-on ferrites. No problem with that. Identify a problem, fix it. But then the M Scaler came out and instead of the problem being truly sorted, which we were initially told it was, we were then told by Rob that cheap, readily available, clip-on ferrites were no longer effective, and we now needed £1400 cables to fix the same problem. So instead of designing out a problem, he designed in a worse one, in that the solution got many, many times more expensive.

And when challenged, Rob said that

£1400 is just the price of a good bottle of wine

which I found insulting and condescending, given that he got his own cables free. So if the new M Scaler does not come with an optimum way of connecting it to the DAVE I shall keep my kidneys and buy many, many bottles of wine. And many, many concert tickets.

 

[genefruit]

But the DAVE is not an arbitrary upstream product from a different manufacturer. Chord make and Rob designed both the M Scaler and the DAVE so it is reasonable to expect them to specify, indeed arguably even supply, an optimum way of connecting them. How else were all the critical listening tests and design work conducted? When the Blu2 came out, there was an issue with RF to which Rob suggested a solution involving very modestly priced clip-on ferrites. No problem with that. Identify a problem, fix it. But then the M Scaler came out and instead of the problem being truly sorted, which we were initially told it was, we were then told by Rob that cheap, readily available, clip-on ferrites were no longer effective, and we now needed £1400 cables to fix the same problem. So instead of designing out a problem, he designed in a worse one, in that the solution got many, many times more expensive.

And when challenged, Rob said that


which I found insulting and condescending, given that he got his own cables free. So if the new M Scaler does not come with an optimum way of connecting it to the DAVE I shall keep my kidneys and buy many, many bottles of wine. And many, many concert tickets.

Great link to Rob's comments on the matter. I suggest everyone who is interested in the matter read it in its entirety. I've provided the full quote for context of his wine comment.

"As to whether it's a fair price depends upon the buyer. To some, £1400 is just the price of a good bottle of wine; to others it's enough to feed a family for a year, so represents enormous wealth. Only you can decide if the improvements is worth the price. Remember also that the Wave Stone cables are more reasonable at under £500."

 

[Reactcore]

Did Rob ever commented about the Opto DX solution? I cant remember reading

 

[jarnopp]

But the DAVE is not an arbitrary upstream product from a different manufacturer. Chord make and Rob designed both the M Scaler and the DAVE so it is reasonable to expect them to specify, indeed arguably even supply, an optimum way of connecting them. How else were all the critical listening tests and design work conducted? When the Blu2 came out, there was an issue with RF to which Rob suggested a solution involving very modestly priced clip-on ferrites. No problem with that. Identify a problem, fix it. But then the M Scaler came out and instead of the problem being truly sorted, which we were initially told it was, we were then told by Rob that cheap, readily available, clip-on ferrites were no longer effective, and we now needed £1400 cables to fix the same problem. So instead of designing out a problem, he designed in a worse one, in that the solution got many, many times more expensive.

And when challenged, Rob said that


which I found insulting and condescending, given that he got his own cables free. So if the new M Scaler does not come with an optimum way of connecting it to the DAVE I shall keep my kidneys and buy many, many bottles of wine. And many, many concert tickets.

See above for the full quote. Yes, I agree Blu Mk2 was not as sorted with noise as mScaler, but in the mind of Chord, mScaler was fixed. That doesn’t mean that any product or group of products from a manufacturer can’t be improved with aftermarket tweaks, not does it mean the manufacturer has to supply all such tweaks. Again, they will never satisfy everyone’s thirsting for “performance” “uniqueness” “placebo” or whatever they are searching for. I made my own ferrited cables and they seem to work fine, but I don’t swap the, back and forth and I believe the stock cables were perfectly passable. But it’s what I’m willing to do just in case. No kidneys required!

Edit: I don’t know if it’s ever been determined that Rob received his Wave cables for free, but I would expect that he did and it would be in the best interests of Nick to get Rob’s opinion on them and want to share them with the designer. I wouldn’t hold that against either of them. (But would good to be stated if it hasn’t.)

 

[SteveHulk]

... I shall keep my kidneys and buy many, many bottles of wine. And many, many concert tickets.

If you buy that many bottles of wine (and concert tickets) your own kidneys and liver will become worthless. You'll end up having to buy replacements from somebody else

 

[zen87192]

You can buy mine when yours have given up. I'm selling them for that 'so callled' forthcoming new 'matching DAVE' DAC. Not sure how to list them in the Classified though Perhaps under Trade....

 

[thePhones]

But the DAVE is not an arbitrary upstream product from a different manufacturer. Chord make and Rob designed both the M Scaler and the DAVE so it is reasonable to expect them to specify, indeed arguably even supply, an optimum way of connecting them. How else were all the critical listening tests and design work conducted? When the Blu2 came out, there was an issue with RF to which Rob suggested a solution involving very modestly priced clip-on ferrites. No problem with that. Identify a problem, fix it. But then the M Scaler came out and instead of the problem being truly sorted, which we were initially told it was, we were then told by Rob that cheap, readily available, clip-on ferrites were no longer effective, and we now needed £1400 cables to fix the same problem. So instead of designing out a problem, he designed in a worse one, in that the solution got many, many times more expensive.

And when challenged, Rob said that


which I found insulting and condescending, given that he got his own cables free. So if the new M Scaler does not come with an optimum way of connecting it to the DAVE I shall keep my kidneys and buy many, many bottles of wine. And many, many concert tickets.

I think open discussion about problems or weaknesses and potential solutions for products should be normal in this type of forum. That is why we are here. We want to go beyond the marketing speak and get something more tangible. But I think we have an amazing opportunity with Rob being so open about his designs, thoughts and potential future improvements, that we should be careful not to destroy this healthy conversation that benefits all.
I am very thankful for Rob's tips and tricks to optimize his products. But he is probably also aware (and I think Chord already told him) not to disclose too much as every well meant trick to fix a small problem could have a bad impact on the product perception.
So please try to keep the balance of product criticism and not destroying the openness of the discussion itself.

Rob is way more open then I expect a designer to be about his products and he seems to also enjoy the discussion and journey to better sound quality, so our (sometimes negative) input is important for progress but we should not let the discussion turn sour.
I think Chord also benefits from this forum immensely but maybe at some point it may turn towards a more superficial conversation and I don't want that to happen.

 

[griff500]

But the DAVE is not an arbitrary upstream product from a different manufacturer. Chord make and Rob designed both the M Scaler and the DAVE so it is reasonable to expect them to specify, indeed arguably even supply, an optimum way of connecting them. How else were all the critical listening tests and design work conducted? When the Blu2 came out, there was an issue with RF to which Rob suggested a solution involving very modestly priced clip-on ferrites. No problem with that. Identify a problem, fix it. But then the M Scaler came out and instead of the problem being truly sorted, which we were initially told it was, we were then told by Rob that cheap, readily available, clip-on ferrites were no longer effective, and we now needed £1400 cables to fix the same problem. So instead of designing out a problem, he designed in a worse one, in that the solution got many, many times more expensive.

And when challenged, Rob said that


which I found insulting and condescending, given that he got his own cables free. So if the new M Scaler does not come with an optimum way of connecting it to the DAVE I shall keep my kidneys and buy many, many bottles of wine. And many, many concert tickets.

It's interesting how you intentionally misquote Rob.

"£1400 is just the price of a good bottle of wine" sounds as bad as you wanted it to sound.

What he actually said was:

"To some, £1400 is just the price of a good bottle of wine"

and the rest of his sentence said:

"to others it's enough to feed a family for a year, so represents enormous wealth."

I find your deliberate misrepresentation, presented as a quote, to be disingenuous at best and downright insulting at worst.

You also have no idea if Rob got the cables for free or not yet present it as a fact that he got them for free to pursue your relentless agenda about these cables. Aside from that, I believe he uses the Stream cables, which are at a lower cost than the Storm cables.

Some self-reflection might be a good idea.

 

[bpcans]

Personally I’m more interested in the innovational aspects of @Rob Watts diligent work for over 20yrs in designing the M Scaler, how he approaches the problem of making digitally recorded music sound natural and organic to the human brain, and what are the technical and manufacturing limits that one has to consider when trying to bring a hopefully financially viable product like a DAVE DAC and an M Scaler to market?

Now I’ve read a few interviews and papers about the M Scaler, and admittedly I must say that most of it is way over my head. But last night my trophy wife and I took our 6yr old daughter to see and hear her first live jazz performance by the critically acclaimed Brazilian pianist and vocalist Eliane Elias. And what I want from my audio system is for it to be able to get me, and hopefully my daughter too, as close to the sound of that visceral experience as possible.

I grew up listening to scratchy 33 and a third and 45rpm records and staticky AM radio. So the distance from that to where I am now to me is pretty astounding. Being from the time of man’s first space flight, and where the future was in transistors, I’ve always been interested in innovation and progress. But during those days the mantra of design was to make things smaller, cheaper, and better, and not bigger, far more expensive, and marginally improved.

What is the future of this hobby, and where is it headed at present?

 

[Cortazar]

To cut the discussion about alcohol. And now something completely different.
I am wondering how to connect a streamer/server with M scaller(( - >dual BNC-Dave )) to get the most of it if while not to spend many bottles of fine wine for 2 or 3 pair of dual bnc cables if the server does not have an usb output but only aes/ebu or spdif. For what I have read is the non USB output often better SQ then usb. I have read much about src dx and opto dx but the idea of many meters cables does not attract me.On the other hand I would not want to dispense of mscaller as it does make the difference imho. Does it make sense to connect the new Grimm mu1 with his spdif output to mscaller via adapter. Does anyone of you tried bridge network dcs with mascaler/Dave or can you recommend me something else (max 10-15kE).

 

[bpcans]

@Cortazar, if this is the music server that you’re using then I suggest that you bypass the M Scaler’s Amanero USB input by going Grimm MU1 > USB cable > Audiowise SRC.DX > single BNC cable > M Scaler. https://www.grimmaudio.com/hifi-products/music-players/mu1/

 

[Cortazar]

->bpcans.
I think Grimm does not have a digital usb output.

 

[Cortazar]

Nor does dcs bridge. My question ist actually are we (m scalller user) condemned to use streamer with usb output or is there any way to use spdif or aes/ebu streamer output (which are claimed to be better then usb) whiteout 2 km of cables that cost many fine wine bottles. Or do we have to sell our m scaller (as attorney did) and connect the streamer directly to Dave with only 1 aes/ebu cable. Think about the poor cable producer!!!

 

[bpcans]

->bpcans.
I think Grimm does not have a digital usb output.

Aren’t these digital USB outputs on the back of the MU1?

 

[Triode User]

Aren’t these digital USB outputs on the back of the MU1?

Is it possible they are connecting an external disk for music storage? (I have no idea myself).