[Prog Rock Man]

I have started to make my own cables. Far more fun and learning is to be had on the DIY threads than the Sound Science threads. DIY is cheaper, fun and no one gets bogged down in spurious claims that can never be validated.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think his arguments are valid

And that makes the two of you.

People, stop the lousy rhetoric and BS. What is the extraordinary claim here at stake? "Expensive power cords make an audible difference."

Hopefully, we agree on the fact that that is the claim in question here.

I think we also agreed already on the fact that the side making the extraordinary claim is the one where the burden of proof lies. So if there's anything to prove here, is that claim in question.

But I'm challenging that claim, people, in case you didn't notice.

I'm not proving anything, and I don't have to prove anything. It's the side advocating the extraordinary (and challenged) claim the one that would need to prove anything, if there's anything to prove here.

Haloxt at least recognized that you aren't interested in providing said proof:
Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif You keep saying you perceive a difference, and they keep demanding objective proof immune to subjective fallacy (to put it euphemistically) when you aren't interested in providing it.

That's ok. But then, don't pretend that the claim is fact and will stop being challenged just because you believe in it.

Therefore, I'm not presenting any "argument" in support of any claim that is being challenged here. So I don't know whatever circularity you guys are supposed to be referring to in an "argument" that comes from me. I've no argument to make circular here, people. So stop the BS.

I'm advocating skepticism, have already said it. I'm pointing to the fact that you haven't provided appropriate evidence for your extraordinary claim, and I've provided easy to understand explanations and analogies, and links to cognitive biases and how our senses can fool us, to possibly spark more skepticism in whoever is reading here about this claim being challenged. That's all.

 

[haloxt]

Oh yes, I saw JaZZ and fzman and big poppa all say under oath that cables were proven to be audibly different in DBT. They are lying liars and should back up their claims!!11!. I even saw fhuang and Sachu preaching to elementary school kids that cables make a difference and that sticking their fingers in the electrical outlet cures cancer, poisoning the collective minds of our youth. We must inoculate them with skepsis or risk certain dark ages in the next few years. Skepticists, unite!

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif People, stop the lousy rhetoric and BS. What is the extraordinary claim here at stake? "Expensive power cords make an audible difference."

But that wasn't the statement of yours to which I responded. As mentioned, I don't hear differences with power cords so far.

Quote:

I think we also agreed already on the fact that the side making the extraordinary claim is the one where the burden of proof lies.

No, «we» don't agree on that. Nobody has the burden of proof. That would be a scientific task, and this is normal Head-Fi territory where anecdotal evidence is sufficient.

Quote:

I'm advocating skepticism, have already said it. I'm pointing to the fact that you haven't provided appropriate evidence for your extraordinary claim, and I've provided easy to understand explanations and analogies to possibly spark more skepticism in whoever is reading here about this claim being challenged. That's all.

Why do you put so much effort into this mission? I wonder what's the motive behind it. I believe to remember that you've been a cable-sound proponent not too long ago. Or am I wrong?
.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nobody has the burden of proof. That would be a scientific task, and this is normal Head-Fi territory where anecdotal evidence is sufficient.

When people making an extraordinary claim don't assume the burden of proof, then other people are always free to challenge said claim, in Head-fi or anywhere, making other people more aware of the fact that said claim, being just anecdotal, can be completely misleading and wrong, even if it has no bad intentions.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do you put so much effort into this mission? I wonder what's the motive behind it. I believe to remember that you've been a cable-sound proponent not too long ago. Or am I wrong?

I have the same motive behind it that I have when saying that there's no proof the rainbow stickers or the quantum chip make any difference. The motive is to challenge something that may be used to fool people into spending money when there's no factual evidence that they will get any benefit. I'm just fond of critical thinking and skepticism.

I've replaced the power cords in my Marantz receiver and my Toshiba player with thicker power cords, using a Home Depot "orange" garden extension. That doesn't mean I advocate expensive power cords make any difference.

I also remember some Headfi meets, and thinking that, for example, some cables sounded slightly brighter than the Zu with the HD650, or some others slightly warmer. Needless to say, with all I've written here and linked to in this thread, you might understand that I don't buy at all what my own hearing makes me believe, unless the comparison is appropriately done. Not even an A/B comparison, but an appropriate DBT test would be the only way to get past our own biases. There's solid evidence to support this. And there's a $1 million dollar challenge still available for whoever thinks otherwise.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fzman /img/forum/go_quote.gif your argument relies heavily on the 'unreliability of the senses'.....

And your argument relies heavily on the fact that you make money selling expensive power cables.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif And that makes the two of you. People, stop the lousy rhetoric and BS. What is the extraordinary claim here at stake? "Expensive power cords make an audible difference." Hopefully, we agree on the fact that that is the claim in question here. I think we also agreed already on the fact that the side making the extraordinary claim is the one where the burden of proof lies. So if there's anything to prove here, is that claim in question. But I'm challenging that claim, people, in case you didn't notice. I'm not proving anything, and I don't have to prove anything. It's the side advocating the extraordinary (and challenged) claim the one that would need to prove anything, if there's anything to prove here. Haloxt at least recognized that you aren't interested in providing said evidence: That's ok. But don't pretend that the claim is fact and will stop being challenged just because you believe in it. Therefore, I'm not presenting any "argument" in support of any claim that is being challenged here. So I don't know whatever circularity you guys are supposed to be referring to in an "argument" that comes from me. I've no argument to make circular here, people. I'm advocating skepticism, have already said it. I'm pointing to the fact that you haven't provided appropriate evidence for your extraordinary claim, and I've provided easy to understand explanations and analogies to possibly spark more skepticism in whoever is reading here about this claim being challenged.

Well said. The burden of proof always lies with the person who makes the claim.

But there might be another way to look at this:

If we can agree that there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that strongly suggests that even during rather "informal listening tests", people can hear differences between power cords....

And if we can agree that there is also a lot of anecdotal evidence that suggests that once you are "no longer aware" of which power cord you're listening to, those differences disappear....

Then perhaps we can also agree that since the people who can hear differences are always aware of what power cords they are using, the differences they have heard are, for what ever reasons, real.

As an example, I evaluated two expensive DACs a while ago. I described their sounds as one having a smile EQ curve and the other a frown EQ curve. I was quite convinced of this and posted about it. Then I volume balanced the two DACs and hooked them up to my GS-1 and flipped back and forth between the two inputs. Wow, what a surprise, I couldn't tell them apart. I had to repost that "Chicken tastes better than Crow".

Now the curious thing is, that with full knowledge that the DACs sounded exactly the same, when I listened to them, again, separately, their former smile and frown characteristics reappeared. I found it impossible to dismiss my earlier psycho-acoustic impressions.

The same thing happened with a USB cable. For some reason and old USB 1 cable with a ferrite (that came with an outboard CD burner) sounded better than any of my USB 2 cables. I knew this wasn't possible, but every time I plug in that old cable it still seems to sound better than the new ones.

Go figure!

USG

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif When people making an extraordinary claim don't assume the burden of proof, then other people is always free to challenge said claim, in Head-fi or anywhere, making other people more aware of the fact that said claim, being just anecdotal, can be completely misleading and wrong, even if it has no bad intentions.

Of course you're free to challenge every claim on this forum. In turn this doesn't mean anybody has to provide proof just to satisfy your high demands in terms of absolute validity.


Quote:

I have the same motive behind it that I have when saying that there's no proof the rainbow stickers or the quantum chip make any difference. The motive is to challenge something that may be used to fool people into spending money when there's no factual evidence that they will get any benefit. I'm just fond of critical thinking and skepticism. Not even an A/B comparison, but an appropriate DBT test would be the only way to get past our own biases. There's solid evidence to support this.

There's a reason why we don't discuss (the validity of) testing procedures on this part of the forum. On the one hand I regret this rule, since corresponding discussions can be at least entertaining, on the other hand it's also true that they often lead to bad blood, hence I more or less agree with it. So the cable forum is a place to exchange cable experiences. You could still contribute to it in the form of: «I generally don't hear clear and consistent differences in cables.»
.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif You could still contribute to it in the form of: «I generally don't hear clear and consistent differences in cables.» .

Fair enough. The point is that I might hear differences, just like any of you, just like everyone else. The fact is, there's no evidence these differences are really there. More so with power cords than any cables in the signal path. People ought to be reminded of this, in particular when the claims about night-and-day sound differences are made to sound doubtlessly factual.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now the curious thing is, that with full knowledge that the DACs sounded exactly the same, when I listened to them, again, separately, their former smile and frown characteristics reappeared. I found it impossible to dismiss my earlier psycho-acoustic impressions. The same thing happened with a USB cable. For some reason and old USB 1 cable with a ferrite (that came with an outboard CD burner) sounded better than any of my USB 2 cables. I knew this wasn't possible, but every time I plug in that old cable it still seems to sound better than the new ones.

In this case I would definitely go with my ears. What more do you want from a component than the sonic trait you like! Does it really matter that «science speaks against it»? Moreover, «with full knowledge that the DACs sounded exactly the same» ... «I knew this wasn't possible» are statements I would never make myself in the context of audio.
.

 

[haloxt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif Fair enough. The point is that I might hear differences, just like any of you, just like everyone else. The fact is, there's no evidence these differences are really there. More so with power cords than any cables in the signal path. People ought to be reminded of this.

We must remind them ten thousand times, just like they do in reeducation camps.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh yes, I saw JaZZ and fzman and big poppa all say under oath that cables were proven to be audibly different in DBT. They are lying liars and should back up their claims!!11!. I even saw fhuang and Sachu preaching to elementary school kids that cables make a difference and that sticking their fingers in the electrical outlet cures cancer, poisoning the collective minds of our youth. We must inoculate them with skepsis or risk certain dark ages in the next few years. Skepticists, unite!

We are liars? Come on now. That is a harsh opinion. Just because we have a different opinion than you does not make us liars. You are more than welcome to a Seattle meet to roll some cables. You have not proved that the cables on my rig does not make a difference? Have you tried any of the cables that I use? In this case the proof is yours to prove. I understand everybody has an opinion. But to call people "LIARS" with absolutely nothing to back up that? Where did this "oath" thing come up? Have no clue what you are talking about? And where do you come from to talk about Head-fiers so reckless? Have you every met SACHU? or Me for that matter? He is not the person you describe. Oh Yeah, I met him at the last meet. Go to one you just might learn something.

 

[haloxt]

I was being sarcastic.

 

[Currawong]

I find it funny that, again and again I've suggested a possible, valid reason for different power cables causing audible differences, yet nobody has taken any interest in looking into the possibilities of what I suggest. If anything, this thread, as well as many others, has been trashed by people with religious beliefs about what is true and what is not.

 

[haloxt]

People who believe in cables have almost all left these threads because they're tired of the broken records called anticablers

. So you're right, no one here is interested in testing anything, just proclaiming "truths".

 

[fhuang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was being sarcastic.

for calling people liar? ha ha there you're doing a good job.



Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh yes, I saw JaZZ and fzman and big poppa all say under oath that cables were proven to be audibly different in DBT. They are lying liars and should back up their claims!!11!. I even saw fhuang and Sachu preaching to elementary school kids that cables make a difference and that sticking their fingers in the electrical outlet cures cancer, poisoning the collective minds of our youth. We must inoculate them with skepsis or risk certain dark ages in the next few years. Skepticists, unite!

i've never told anyone here at head-fi for which cable you should get or advise anyone to do a cable upgrade.



i hope the mod(s) or admin here can close this thread as this thread really ain't nowhere. or more, close this cable section/forum as there was nothing but trouble here when talk about cables.