[BS5711]

Thank you for taking the time to listen to my recording and sharing your thoughts.

While I understand the value of aligning recordings with what most might use for playback, it's challenging to determine a universally accepted reference. I mentioned earlier in the thread – which is quite extensive, so I completely understand if it was overlooked – that the PC360s offer a more realistic playback for my recordings compared to the HD600s, imagining and soundstage mimicking what I heard when I was there.. For me, they serve as an excellent reference set. Beyond this, they've been exceptional for general music playback as well. While I'm not averse to using them for various purposes, my primary focus remains on their utility for my recordings.

Your feedback is immensely appreciated. Insights from audiophiles always offer a fresh perspective and help me refine my approach.

I totally understand your point and if only for your enjoyment that makes sense.

But, if I was your audience and you want to give me your experience of the walk and the sounds along the way and I am listening with a nice headphone but I don’t hear what you heard then isn’t there a logical rationale that something is missing between the recording and my listening ?

If you have established your recording gear, techniques and processes based on the PC360 then it stands to reason that they would sound good on a PC360 but that isn’t what the audience is listening with.

If you established and refined your recording process with HD600 then they would sound good on HD600 and probably on a lot of equipment your listeners are using.

Sorry, I don’t want to come across as critical or like I think I know anything about the recording process, just a thought that to me is a critical consideration in your current quest.

 

[dbmathis]

I totally understand your point and if only for your enjoyment that makes sense.

But, if I was your audience and you want to give me your experience of the walk and the sounds along the way and I am listening with a nice headphone but I don’t hear what you heard then isn’t there a logical rationale that something is missing between the recording and my listening ?

If you have established your recording gear, techniques and processes based on the PC360 then it stands to reason that they would sound good on a PC360 but that isn’t what the audience is listening with.

If you established and refined your recording process with HD600 then they would sound good on HD600 and probably on a lot of equipment your listeners are using.

Sorry, I don’t want to come across as critical or like I think I know anything about the recording process, just a thought that to me is a critical consideration in your current quest.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I genuinely appreciate the engagement.

To clarify, my primary criterion for a reference headset is how closely it reproduces what I hear in real life when I made the recording. This is not about personal enjoyment but about accuracy. Listening to the raw recording directly from my Zoom F6 at 48kHz 32bit gives me a benchmark. From there, I enhance and refine the audio in Izotope RX.

By sheer chance, the PC360s happened to be a near-perfect match in mimicking that "live" sound I heard when I recorded it when playing back the raw unedited file. This isn't an arbitrary preference; it's about faithfully replicating the original experience. The HD600s, without an amp, unfortunately, don't deliver that same fidelity in this specific process I've cultivated.

I completely acknowledge the challenge you've pointed out: how to ensure that what I hear during editing is what the majority of my audience hears. You're right, if my recording process had been built around the HD600s, then, in theory, the outcome should be optimized for them and similar devices. But given that my YouTube audience spans a diverse range of equipment – from high-end headphones to cheap TV speakers – it's practically impossible to cater perfectly to everyone.

My pursuit, then, is twofold: to find headphones (or headphones with an amp) that can reproduce what I hear in real-life while listening to the raw file as closely as the PC360s did, and to strike a balance in my final output so it sounds acceptable to the broadest range of listeners. It's not perfect, but seems to get me in the ballpark of generally acceptable sound quality.

To summarize, I'm trusting that the raw file recorded into my Zoom F6 with the particular microphones I use are closely matching what I heard in real life. The PC360s in fact did produce the sound I heard in real life when listening back. It's close enough for me. Then YouTube encodes it and it sounds much worse that the original. It's just how it is.

 

[dbmathis]

I've had a chance to test out the K5 Pro and HD599s, and here are my impressions:

When I paired the K5 Pro with the HD600s, the transformation was nothing short of remarkable. My walk recording took on a vivid realism; the imaging and soundstage were outstanding, allowing me to pinpoint the exact locations of distant birds, cars, and other ambient sounds. Listening to my favorite classical pieces evoked intense emotions, sending shivers down my spine and eliciting goosebumps. For those who argue that the HD600s perform just fine straight from Mac devices, my experience suggests otherwise. To put it simply, I'm astounded by the difference.

The HD599s, priced at $100.00 USD, delivered a commendable performance. While they couldn't match the HD600s in terms of intricate detailing and precision, they offered a more laid-back auditory experience. Their value proposition is undeniable, considering the price point.

In terms of replacing the PC360s, the HD599s could potentially fill that void. But the HD600s excel across the board, especially in accurately reproducing the sounds I capture during my walks.

Currently, I'm leaning towards returning both the K5 Pro and the HD599s. I'm considering investing in either the Mojo 2 or the Diablo for my DAC/amp needs. This would enable a seamless experience, whether I'm listening in bed with my iPhone or meeting my reference and music headphone needs simultaneously.

 

[earmonger]

Side note, just out of curiosity: what mics are you using? Schoeps? Gefell? Sennheiser? DPA? Nakamichi? Sony?

 

[dbmathis]

Side note, just out of curiosity: what mics are you using? Schoeps? Gefell? Sennheiser? DPA? Nakamichi? Sony?

None of those. I'm using SP15XLR or https://soundprofessionals.com/product/MS-EHB-2-MKII/

They're are similar to the DPA, but a fraction of the cost. I wear these out in the rain, sweating on them constantly. Not sure 1200.00 dollar mics would be cost effective.

 

[cfranchi]

I've had a chance to test out the K5 Pro and HD599s, and here are my impressions:

When I paired the K5 Pro with the HD600s, the transformation was nothing short of remarkable. My walk recording took on a vivid realism; the imaging and soundstage were outstanding, allowing me to pinpoint the exact locations of distant birds, cars, and other ambient sounds. Listening to my favorite classical pieces evoked intense emotions, sending shivers down my spine and eliciting goosebumps. For those who argue that the HD600s perform just fine straight from Mac devices, my experience suggests otherwise. To put it simply, I'm astounded by the difference.

The HD599s, priced at $100.00 USD, delivered a commendable performance. While they couldn't match the HD600s in terms of intricate detailing and precision, they offered a more laid-back auditory experience. Their value proposition is undeniable, considering the price point.

In terms of replacing the PC360s, the HD599s could potentially fill that void. But the HD600s excel across the board, especially in accurately reproducing the sounds I capture during my walks.

Currently, I'm leaning towards returning both the K5 Pro and the HD599s. I'm considering investing in either the Mojo 2 or the Diablo for my DAC/amp needs. This would enable a seamless experience, whether I'm listening in bed with my iPhone or meeting my reference and music headphone needs simultaneously.

I’m curious to hear your comparison between K5 and Mojo 2

 

[castleofargh]

That's the thing. The only thing I have to compare to is a pair of PC360s that was gifted

I've decided to keep the HD600s, for now, and am now in search of the best possible DAC/amp combo for them. My primary focus is field recordings, so I need equipment that is durable, versatile, and accurately reproduces sound for later editing in Izotope. Portability is essential, as I often carry my gear while walking. Although I aim for superior quality, I'd like to remain cost-effective, but there is not budget. I don't want to spend an excessive amount needlessly. The PC360s served me well, but now that they've reached their end, I'm keen on finding something as good, if not better. Listening to my raw recording in Izotope rather than YouTube this morning convinced me that the HD600s will likely suffice for the headphones, but I need to hear them through a good dac/amp to be sure. The ultimate goal as of today ? A DAC/amp combo that captures reality with utmost precision. Music appreciation, though a bonus, is secondary for me.

For example: Here's one of my recordings. I just switched between the PC360s (which have a popping sound due to the loose mic) and the HD600s. They are plugged directly into a Macbook Pro. The PC360s sound better by FAR. With the PC360s I feel like I'm walking the road as if I am there. The thunder clap is awe inspiring. The HD600s sound weak and artificial compared. I lack the experience to explain the difference I hear, but it's night and day. I'm thinking they are just underpowered, but I'm just not sure:

Just to balance things out, here is my take on this:
For binaural recording like you do, the biggest factor by far on playback is frequency response. You record a certain way with a more or less accurate FR, with a more or less accurate involvement of your own head and ears (the more, the better for this specific purpose), and then you play that back into some transducers with their own FR that will also interact with your ears. It would be marvelous luck to just get the very FR your brain is used to, and expects, just by picking a headphone at random or by fooling around with sources or amps.

I think the "easiest" solution is to rely on equal loudness contour by either listening to a bunch of tones and try to make them feel about as loud, then work on that curve, or an "easier" approach is to tune the same tones by listening at low level and settling on the just noticeable amplitude. The second method is much easier subjectively as you don't even have to match the nearby tones. But it then requires another compensation that will have to be generic instead of custom, to account for how our sensitivity at very quiet level does not have the same frequency response curve at louder amplitudes (listening quietly makes the low and high frequency roll off subjectively).

There are tools for that, if only I was better at searching the forum I'd give you several links for tools and methods that I know to work fine.
Here is the best I could do for now, maybe I'll remember something later for the one I was actually looking for in the first place...
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/neutralizer-freqency-loudness.965205/#post-17183061 a fellow member using an android app that seems to work fine for several people, to help get somewhat flat(subjective) response. Maybe you could start there as a proof of concept? I then try to explain in that thread what I suspect the app of doing so he could get the FR for himself and use it outside the app. Which is something you also might want to do. So probably a thread of interest for you.

Another one I remember, more specific to binaural recording and an approach from Mr Griesinger himself.

He gives the app he had made if you just ask him by email. Or maybe it can be found online by now? IDK, I was a fairly early tester and the app was still in well needed development.

I have something similar to both methods to fine tune the calibration on my Realiser A16(speaker simulator), which is why I'm familiar with the concept and psychoacoustic involved, but as what I use is integrated to that overly expensive machine, it can't help you right now.

So to conclude, IMO, get the frequency response you need however you can, and then, you can fool around with sources, DACs and amplifiers for a little extra something.
In general, common sense and feedback suggests that the better the headphone(objectively, low distortions, smooth and well extended FR), the better the realism and accuracy of the playback. Which is kind of intuitive, but it also tends to be costly. I think the Hd600 is a perfectly fine headphone for your hobby on a budget. In the same brand, the HD800 is often mentioned as an ideal contestant, but then you really do need something to power it properly as it's definitely not a "portable" headphone.

 

[dbmathis]

Just to balance things out, here is my take on this:
For binaural recording like you do, the biggest factor by far on playback is frequency response. You record a certain way with a more or less accurate FR, with a more or less accurate involvement of your own head and ears (the more, the better for this specific purpose), and then you play that back into some transducers with their own FR that will also interact with your ears. It would be marvelous luck to just get the very FR your brain is used to, and expects, just by picking a headphone at random or by fooling around with sources or amps.

I think the "easiest" solution is to rely on equal loudness contour by either listening to a bunch of tones and try to make them feel about as loud, then work on that curve, or an "easier" approach is to tune the same tones by listening at low level and settling on the just noticeable amplitude. The second method is much easier subjectively as you don't even have to match the nearby tones. But it then requires another compensation that will have to be generic instead of custom, to account for how our sensitivity at very quiet level does not have the same frequency response curve at louder amplitudes (listening quietly makes the low and high frequency roll off subjectively).

There are tools for that, if only I was better at searching the forum I'd give you several links for tools and methods that I know to work fine.
Here is the best I could do for now, maybe I'll remember something later for the one I was actually looking for in the first place...
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/neutralizer-freqency-loudness.965205/#post-17183061 a fellow member using an android app that seems to work fine for several people, to help get somewhat flat(subjective) response. Maybe you could start there as a proof of concept? I then try to explain in that thread what I suspect the app of doing so he could get the FR for himself and use it outside the app. Which is something you also might want to do. So probably a thread of interest for you.

Another one I remember, more specific to binaural recording and an approach from Mr Griesinger himself.

He gives the app he had made if you just ask him by email. Or maybe it can be found online by now? IDK, I was a fairly early tester and the app was still in well needed development.

I have something similar to both methods to fine tune the calibration on my Realiser A16(speaker simulator), which is why I'm familiar with the concept and psychoacoustic involved, but as what I use is integrated to that overly expensive machine, it can't help you right now.

So to conclude, IMO, get the frequency response you need however you can, and then, you can fool around with sources, DACs and amplifiers for a little extra something.
In general, common sense and feedback suggests that the better the headphone(objectively, low distortions, smooth and well extended FR), the better the realism and accuracy of the playback. Which is kind of intuitive, but it also tends to be costly. I think the Hd600 is a perfectly fine headphone for your hobby on a budget. In the same brand, the HD800 is often mentioned as an ideal contestant, but then you really do need something to power it properly as it's definitely not a "portable" headphone.

Thank you for the comprehensive write-up. To be candid, some of it went over my head. I'll need to allocate some time to delve deeper and fully grasp your points.

Just yesterday, I mentioned considering returning the HD599s and the K9 Pro in favor of a higher-quality DAC/amp for the HD600s. However, my perspective shifted shortly after. I've come to realize that I've been looking in the wrong price range for what I truly desire: more than just an authentic reflection of my recordings. Experiencing the HD600s through the DAC/amp introduced me to the tangible differences in aspects like imaging and soundstage, etc.

I'm eager to explore what other headphones can bring to my recordings, and to a lesser extent, to music. Given this, I'm inclined to explore a higher price bracket. I'm considering options like the Hifiman HE1000/Ayra Stealth, add the HD800s. Listening to my recording on the HD600s was enlightening, but I'm now curious about the pinnacle (within reason) of audio quality. After all, we only live once, and I yearn for the best auditory experience.

Consequently, I've decided to return the HD600s and will be using the HD599s in the interim as I continue my research. I'm on the lookout for headphones offering top-notch imaging and soundstage with a balanced frequency response. As for the choice between the Mojo 2 and the Diablo, I'm still contemplating, but probably the Diablo for power.

 

[dbmathis]

I'll revive this in a new thread with what I've learned once I have the new headphones and DAC/amp.

 

[Monsterzero]

Hifiman HE1000/Ayra Stealth, add the HD800s. Listening to my recording on the HD600s was enlightening, but I'm now curious about the pinnacle (within reason) of audio quality. After all, we only live once, and I yearn for the best auditory experience.

You will find that there is a profound difference between dynamic driver and planar driver headphones. Most members find that while planars are superior on many aspects of the sound spectrum, the realism and natural decay of dynamic driver HPs are difficult to beat.

If staging is of importance, you might want to look into the AKG K601(discontinued) K701, K702, K712, Sennheiser HD800, Beyerdynamic T1.1, ZMF Atrium open, ZMF Caldera, Hifiman Susvara.

All of those headphones will most def require an amp, and in the case of the AKGs and HD800, both tend to be amp picky for different reasons. For the Susvara, I found it to be one of the most amazing sounding headphones I've ever heard, but it's MAJOR dollars and one of the hardest headphones on the planet to drive, so a mega amp is required, and at least for me, I found it to be fatiguing to listen to for extended periods.

ZMF headphones, of which I own almost all except for two, are the king of realism IMO. The wood cups offer a decay and realistic nature that plastic or other man made cup designs can't touch, not to mention that each ZMF is a unique, handmade work of art and they have the best customer service in the industry.

I should mention that the law of diminishing returns is strong within the HP hobby and you might find yourself spending thousands for a 5-10% improvement.

All that being said, my observations and opinions are based upon music playback only, so YMMV and all that.

 

[dbmathis]

You will find that there is a profound difference between dynamic driver and planar driver headphones. Most members find that while planars are superior on many aspects of the sound spectrum, the realism and natural decay of dynamic driver HPs are difficult to beat.

If staging is of importance, you might want to look into the AKG K601(discontinued) K701, K702, K712, Sennheiser HD800, Beyerdynamic T1.1, ZMF Atrium open, ZMF Caldera, Hifiman Susvara.

All of those headphones will most def require an amp, and in the case of the AKGs and HD800, both tend to be amp picky for different reasons. For the Susvara, I found it to be one of the most amazing sounding headphones I've ever heard, but it's MAJOR dollars and one of the hardest headphones on the planet to drive, so a mega amp is required, and at least for me, I found it to be fatiguing to listen to for extended periods.

ZMF headphones, of which I own almost all except for two, are the king of realism IMO. The wood cups offer a decay and realistic nature that plastic or other man made cup designs can't touch, not to mention that each ZMF is a unique, handmade work of art and they have the best customer service in the industry.

I should mention that the law of diminishing returns is strong within the HP hobby and you might find yourself spending thousands for a 5-10% improvement.

All that being said, my observations and opinions are based upon music playback only, so YMMV and all that.

So it seems like maybe the HD800s might be the next to try then. 6000.00 for the Hifiman Susvara is probably not worth it haha. 100% on the law of diminishing returns. And I'm also leaning toward the Mojo 2 again because I have been reading that the Diable is not the best for using while charging. I was hoping to find something that is portable but can be used for desktop too.

 

[Monsterzero]

Here's the deal with the HD800. It's an audio scalpel. Any and all imperfections within your chain or recordings will be lay bare for all to witness. You will hear things in recordings that you know by heart that you never noticed before. It's also bass light, so if bass is of importance to you, you may want to look elsewhere. It can also sound quite bright, so careful amp and DAC pairings is crucial, hence why I said it's amp picky above.

 

[dbmathis]

Here's the deal with the HD800. It's an audio scalpel. Any and all imperfections within your chain or recordings will be lay bare for all to witness. You will hear things in recordings that you know by heart that you never noticed before. It's also bass light, so if bass is of importance to you, you may want to look elsewhere. It can also sound quite bright, so careful amp and DAC pairings is crucial, hence why I said it's amp picky above.

Bass is not important, but being able to hear every detail is. I watched the reviews of the Mojo 2 and it has an EQ setting for bass. Not sure if that would help should I want to spice something up.

 

[Monsterzero]

You will be hard pressed to find a more detailed headphone than the 800.

Just remember, amp and dac pairing is important with this headphone.

If I were you, I'd pop into the hd800 thread and ask for opinions on how it responds to the Mojo 2,or any other upstream gear you're considering

 

[cfranchi]

You will be hard pressed to find a more detailed headphone than the 800.

Just remember, amp and dac pairing is important with this headphone.

If I were you, I'd pop into the hd800 thread and ask for opinions on how it responds to the Mojo 2,or any other upstream gear you're considering

From Headfonia review:

« The Sennheiser HD800S and Mojo 2 combo is excellent. I didn’t expect it to sound this remarkable but I could listen to this all day long. Clarity, precision, excellent PRaT, a good amount of overall body, nice bass impact and all that with a musical presentations. My ears approve. »