[gregorio]

[1] My point is if you give your honest opinion good or bad, it is still good opinion.
2. I agree that a bit of skepticism is needed. But isn't it like that with everything?

1. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, they're not entitled to their own facts though! If an opinion, honest or not, contradicts the facts, how is that still a good opinion?

2. No, it isn't. Are you sceptical that gravity exists or that the Earth is spherical rather than flat? The trick surely, is to know what to be sceptical about? In other words, having the knowledge to differentiate what are effectively incontrovertible facts from what are not, and therefore what deserves scepticism. Herein lies the problem: Many/Most audiophiles do not have the knowledge to make this differentiation, they are not aware of (or do not understand) the effectively incontrovertible facts of human hearing perception and the behaviour of an electrical current down a wire and therefore, they direct their scepticism in completely the opposite direction. They accept appearances and are sceptical of the actual facts! The solution is indeed as you stated, "to do a little homework" and discover the effectively incontrovertible facts but few audiophiles are willing to do that homework, preferring instead just to accept the marketing and uncontrolled "impressions".

I'm sure the OP has discovered by now there is no convincing some people. Some people are convinced the Earth is flat, it's an irrational belief and therefore no amount of rational arguments and effectively incontrovertible facts will convince them otherwise.

G

 

[ExpatinJapan]

3. The Earth is fat.

 

[bigshot]

I'm sure the OP has discovered by now there is no convincing some people.

That may be true, but it's even more amazing that it took 8 years to not convince them1

 

[bonesb]

I always wonder how much of all these are ture, and how much of a difference can be notice by normal ear, I also try to stick to audiophile products being a normal customer, maybe I am just wasting my money.

 

[colonelkernel8]

This thread title may as well be "How do I convince people that religion isn't real" at this point.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

You need to at least be more specific about cables. Whether or not there’s an audible difference between two $300 cables might be debatable. But cables absolutely make a difference if you’re comparing a crappy cable to a good one.

 

[castleofargh]

You need to at least be more specific about cables. Whether or not there’s an audible difference between two $300 cables might be debatable. But cables absolutely make a difference if you’re comparing a crappy cable to a good one.

please tell us how you define good and crappy cable as specifically as you can. and to avoid wasting time, your own and everybody's, remember this is the Sound Science section of the forum. sighted listening does not prove audible difference.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

please tell us how you define good and crappy cable as specifically as you can. and to avoid wasting time, your own and everybody's, remember this is the Sound Science section of the forum. sighted listening does not prove audible difference.

First of all, I don’t care what parameters you all want to use. I’m not going to cite some 6 month long double blind study to back up my perspective. But I will share an autobiographical story and then I’m out.

About 2 years ago I bought the Oppo PM-3. It came with two stock cables. One had smart phone controls built in and the other one didn’t. By default, I used the cable with the controls because it was convenient. I thought the headphones sounded decent but very flat, not dynamic, and with an extremely small soundstage. I was ready to ship them back immediately.
But then I read about other people complaining about poor audio quality with cables that have built-in controls and microphones etc. So I decided to just try the other cable out of curiosity. And it immediately sounded noticeably better. I did not have to do a quick A and B to hear the differences. It was obvious.
So, my definition of a crappy cable is the stock Oppo PM3 cable with smart phone controls. My definition of a good cable was the other stock cable without controls.

Now I’m out and you all can argue amongst yourselves.

 

[Maxx134]

Some people are convinced the Earth is flat

I thought it was oval??..

That may be true, but it's even more amazing that it took 8 years to not convince them1

When will everyone realize this market is based on "what sounds better" to the buyer, and so you cannot convince someone of their preferences..

please tell us how you define

I know this is a good starting question, but also
"sounds" like a classic trolling question.
Although the intention is to make one think, their pre-concieved bias and experiences will instead put them on the defensive.

There is absolutely no way you can convince a person either way, when they have made their decision on their own experience.

If you can't hear a difference, regardless the explanations or system conditions, consider yourself blessed lol.

 

[sonitus mirus]

Not everyone suffers with the same level of stubbornness, ignorance, or delusional thinking. Some could very well benefit from knowing the facts.

 

[castleofargh]

I know this is a good starting question, but also
"sounds" like a classic trolling question.
Although the intention is to make one think, their pre-concieved bias and experiences will instead put them on the defensive.

There is absolutely no way you can convince a person either way, when they have made their decision on their own experience.

If you can't hear a difference, regardless the explanations or system conditions, consider yourself blessed lol.

of course it's a trick question, because there is a lot that depends on the answer. which is also why it's a necessary question.
if the total value of his claim amounts to saying good is better than bad, or that working cable is better than broken cable, was it even worth posting? but if he has a specific idea about what defines a good cable, then maybe there is something to discuss. like what to measure, what are the nominal specs for a specific cable under a specific use, etc.

as for my warning about sighted test, the problem of sighted listening is that we can't know when we're right and when our brain is full of crap. there is no way with such experience to confirm the real answer, or that our feeling is actually coming from sound. lacking control removes any confidence in the result no matter what it is. that's why we don't want a claim about audible sound difference made from sighted impressions. the point isn't to win internet one more time, but to draw conclusions based on proper experimentation. without proper testing, everything else is futile.

aside from that, can big audible differences happen under specific circumstances? sure. there won't be many people to claim that weird stuff cannot ever happen. but should we make claims about all cables based on accidents and poor choice of gears? should we on the contrary, make claims about the average typical results we can expect from typical cables? or shouldn't we just stop making general claims about everything just to show off on a forum? I vote for the last option. instead of fighting over what to claim, I'd be much happier to simply see fewer claims or very conditional claims based on very conditional experiences(exhaustively described). the sort of stuff we might be able to call a fact instead of an empty claim for a change.

 

[bigshot]

I’m not going to cite some 6 month long double blind study to back up my perspective. But I will share an autobiographical story and then I’m out

Sorry, you're in Sound Science. Anecdotal impressions don't cut it around here. I could tell you a anecdotal story about my house being haunted but I have no [/SIZE]scientific proof and no one would be expected to believe me. Why should you expect us to believe you when you present some anecdotal story that bears no relationship to the reality of electrical engineering and physics.

You've been a wonderful guest and we're all going to miss you. We have some lovely parting gifts and a copy of the Sound Science home game for you.

Next!

There is absolutely no way you can convince a person either way, when they have made their decision on their own degree of ignorance.

FTFY

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Sorry, you're in Sound Science. Anecdotal impressions don't cut it around here. I could tell you a anecdotal story about my house being haunted but I have no [/SIZE]scientific proof and no one would be expected to believe me. Why should you expect us to believe you when you present some anecdotal story that bears no relationship to the reality of electrical engineering and physics.

You've been a wonderful guest and we're all going to miss you. We have some lovely parting gifts and a copy of the Sound Science home game for you.

Next!



FTFY

I really don’t care if you believe me. I don’t have a stake in your smug game and I have no reason to lie and nothing to gain.

 

[bigshot]

I really don’t care if you believe me. I don’t have a stake in your smug game and I have no reason to lie and nothing to gain.

Do you care about knowing at all? Because the proof is in this post right here... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths.486598/ Search it for the word cables and you'll have a mountain of evidence. If you want to know how cables work and what it would take for one cable to sound different than another one, all you have to do is ask in this forum. There are many knowledgeable engineers who post regularly to this group who would be happy to answer your questions and explain the science behind it.

But if you're just going to come in here and drop an anecdotal story and claim that your opinion is as valid as someone who has done the research to know for themselves, then you're wasting your time. That works in the rest of Head-Fi, but it doesn't work in Sound Science.

 

[Don Hills]

I really don’t care if you believe me. I don’t have a stake in your smug game and I have no reason to lie and nothing to gain.

This is the Sound Science sub-forum. If you aren't prepared to consider that you might be wrong about your beliefs in the differences between your headphone cables, why are you here? There are other areas of Head-Fi where you will find like-minded people who will validate your beliefs.