How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
May 21, 2010 at 3:18 PM Post #706 of 2,696

JaZZ

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Yes, in a rather crude way I did last year, it was by proxy using an AD stage from the analog output from a CD player and a variety of different cables. I also posted samples recorded from different cables.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/405217/my-cable-test-enterprise


I haven't followed your thread to the end, but I think it has produced some remarkable measuring results, particularly the difference signals – which are actually the only significant ones considering the limited graphic resolution.
.
 
May 21, 2010 at 4:38 PM Post #707 of 2,696

nick_charles

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Quote:
I haven't followed your thread to the end, but I think it has produced some remarkable measuring results, particularly the difference signals – which are actually the only significant ones considering the limited graphic resolution.
.


By a bizarre twist of fate the post you point to is the only comparison I can (sort of) actually rerun as I was unable to offload the silver cable and I have loads of copper cables. Since I did that test I have acquired more knowledge about FFT analysis and have created better samples and had more practice at the whole alignment bash. The overall patterns will stilll be the same (varying with frequency and amplitude) but the detailed result will be more accurate as it matches the FFT size to the number of samples.
 
May 21, 2010 at 11:37 PM Post #708 of 2,696

cegras

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Do any of you cable believers also subscribe to Patrick's investigations? Given that you both believe that cables, ERS paper, and passive conditioners can make a difference, I would be surprised and skeptical if you do not follow in the same pattern of thinking as he does.
 
May 21, 2010 at 11:41 PM Post #709 of 2,696

SP Wild

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According to science audio cables will affect the signal being passed through - no matter how short or long, what material it is constructed of, shielding and thickness.  This cannot be doubted.  So the argument is whether these differences can be heard by individuals and whether the DBT is proficient enough to consolidate the differences in opinions.
 
I am more than happy for a scientist to come to my home and carry a scientific DBT on my system with my cables and my music.  I also put a prerequisite that changes made at the interval of my choosing and listening sessions are made after I have had a nice dinner and shower and my girlfriend must be resting her head on my lap as she lays on the couch whilst I am listening.  The only variable that is fixed is that I am blinded - all other variables that do not invalidate the process are varied accordingly as I wish.
 
May 22, 2010 at 12:20 AM Post #710 of 2,696

fishski13

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Do any of you cable believers also subscribe to Patrick's investigations? Given that you both believe that cables, ERS paper, and passive conditioners can make a difference, I would be surprised and skeptical if you do not follow in the same pattern of thinking as he does.

 
i think Patrick experiences a different reality from most.  do i hear differences in cables - yes.  that being said, my DIY 1m Cardas enameled copper with stupid nickel plated Switchcraft RCAs ICs at $20 compares very well to my DIY Jupiter silver/cotton with rhodium Furutech RCAs at $150.  different, yes, but not earth shattering.  for me, cables are subtle tweaks that require strained critical listening to hear differences.  am i like Patrick, nooooooooo
smile_phones.gif

 
 
May 22, 2010 at 5:31 AM Post #711 of 2,696

Prog Rock Man

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If only the differences were a little bigger : ).
 
 
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Genius! 
 
Quote:
 
I do find some similarity with skepticism about cable related DBX tests and some DBX tests in medicine.  This will vary depending on specialty and what it is that you're trying to compare.  Trials comparing medication are a lot more straightforward than comparing two operative procedures, for example.  You may get a result and accept the validity of it.  However, is it really providing the correct answer??  A valid result obtained through reasonable methodology will not always be what obtains in a real world setting, nor will it always detect or adequately explain an observed phenomenon.
 
We are way too quick to blame imagination etc. on some observed phenomenon.


Of course some tests will be more rigorous than others. However, the sum total of ABX/blind tests I have found published on the internet finds that the majority show there is no difference. The two that do were run by hifi magazines, who have an interest in finding differences.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths
 
There is overwhelming evidence that cables do not make a difference. The 'electrical causing audible' evidence for such differences is not supported by testing. 
 
May 22, 2010 at 11:57 AM Post #712 of 2,696

cegras

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Quote:
 
i think Patrick experiences a different reality from most.  do i hear differences in cables - yes.  that being said, my DIY 1m Cardas enameled copper with stupid nickel plated Switchcraft RCAs ICs at $20 compares very well to my DIY Jupiter silver/cotton with rhodium Furutech RCAs at $150.  different, yes, but not earth shattering.  for me, cables are subtle tweaks that require strained critical listening to hear differences.  am i like Patrick, nooooooooo
smile_phones.gif

 


Well see, there's the rub. Patrick has the same attitude as you, but taken to the extreme. He has ditched electrically sound equipment (e.g. power line conditioners) for 20,000+ passive conditioners and cables, much as some of you would like to claim a 1000 cable can make as much difference as 1000 other pieces of equipment. It's weird for you guys to say 'I believe in cables but not as much as Patrick.' How can you only believe half way?
 
May 22, 2010 at 1:34 PM Post #713 of 2,696

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You have to try the cables and not just read about them. They will make a difference to you on your gear or they don't. It is a little difficult for me to grasp the idea "How can you believe half way?". Cables will make a difference or they won't simple as that IMO.
 
May 22, 2010 at 1:41 PM Post #714 of 2,696

SP Wild

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Quote:
Well see, there's the rub. Patrick has the same attitude as you, but taken to the extreme. He has ditched electrically sound equipment (e.g. power line conditioners) for 20,000+ passive conditioners and cables, much as some of you would like to claim a 1000 cable can make as much difference as 1000 other pieces of equipment. It's weird for you guys to say 'I believe in cables but not as much as Patrick.' How can you only believe half way?

 
I'm with him all the way in regards to the prime importance of the beginning of the chain....the power (smell that testosterone - mmmm POWER).  He lost me with his new claims that improved power cables inhibit sound quality.
 
1 million dollars huh.  You offer a million bucks when there is a risk to simple subjectivists - the risk of failing the DBT in unfamiliar territory with the resultant loss of time and resources that will not be compensated for.  Why not remove the risk - the DBT is to be done at the simple subjectivists own territory, turf and terms - in a manner that is legitimate with DBT.  I guarantee you there will be more numerous volunteers - I for one - but who is so foolish to take up such a challenge and inevitably part with a millions dollars?  Can the real slim shady please stand up.
 
 
May 22, 2010 at 2:11 PM Post #715 of 2,696

Prog Rock Man

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Cables make a difference or they do not. That claim backs up the psychoacoustic reasons why a cable will sound different, it is all in the mind of the listener. If there was an inherent, electrical reason why a cable made a difference, we would all hear the difference and agree on what that difference is. But we do not. 
 
May 22, 2010 at 2:19 PM Post #716 of 2,696

SP Wild

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I'll make the offer more attractive to the objectivists.  You do not have to offer a million dollars - just do in my territory under my terms - I have even removed the risk of losing a million bucks.  This is my last offer.  Any takers?
 
May 22, 2010 at 3:02 PM Post #717 of 2,696

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Some people do not have gear good enough for cables to make a difference. Sad fact but it is true. Some people do not listen to gear enough to know the difference, AKA casual listener. And some do not know how to tell the difference. People can huff and puff all they want, it is what it is.
 
May 22, 2010 at 3:06 PM Post #718 of 2,696

High_Q

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I'm quite curious what kind of gear you need to make cable make a difference because the kind of reasoning people typically state, but never heard any explainations or seen any tests results based on that claim.  What kind of gears are you suggesting?  Can you name some? Because you sound very convinced.  I really want to see some measurements based on this idea.
 
May 22, 2010 at 3:14 PM Post #719 of 2,696

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I can demonstrate on my gear that cables make a difference easy, go to a Seattle mini meet. Will be organizing another one shortly. Some people get too dependent on other peoples opinions and work to make their point. To those people, organize your own mini meets, DBX demonstrations to find out if your point is right or wrong what every side you are on. And share your results.
 
May 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM Post #720 of 2,696

aimlink

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I'm quite curious what kind of gear you need to make cable make a difference because the kind of reasoning people typically state, but never heard any explainations or seen any tests results based on that claim.  What kind of gears are you suggesting?  Can you name some? Because you sound very convinced.  I really want to see some measurements based on this idea.


I don't know if it need be that sophisticated.  With my HeadRoom UltraDesktop, I could hear a damningly clear difference between the stock and ALO SXC Cryo cable on my K702's.  I can hear a damningly clear difference between the Silver Dragon and stock cables on my HD650's.
 
Anyone here hearing clear differences and with amused fascination, concluding without doubt that based on the 'overwhelming' evidence out there, that they're experiencing an expensive illusion? 
evil_smiley.gif

 

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