[Slaughter]

Kind of short sighted don't you think? 128kbps MP3 vs FLAC. Some hear a difference and some don't. Sibilance on some headphones, it affects some and not others. Some people have higher pain tolerences than others, even though say 100 degrees is 100 degress. What you are suggesting is that if something is different, either it affects all of us or is doesn't. It just doesn't work that way, even with cables, amps, dacs, ect.

 
Quote:

Cables make a difference or they do not. That claim backs up the psychoacoustic reasons why a cable will sound different, it is all in the mind of the listener. If there was an inherent, electrical reason why a cable made a difference, we would all hear the difference and agree on what that difference is. But we do not. 

 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Some people do not have gear good enough for cables to make a difference. Sad fact but it is true. Some people do not listen to gear enough to know the difference, AKA casual listener. And some do not know how to tell the difference. People can huff and puff all they want, it is what it is.

So the kit and/or the person make the difference, not the cable.

 

[Slaughter]

The cable is part of the chain. And people are different, so you don't know what I hear or feel and vice versa.

 
Quote:

So the kit and/or the person make the difference, not the cable.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Kind of short sighted don't you think? 128kbps MP3 vs FLAC. Some hear a difference and some don't. Sibilance on some headphones, it affects some and not others. Some people have higher pain tolerences than others, even though say 100 degrees is 100 degress. What you are suggesting is that if something is different, either it affects all of us or is doesn't. It just doesn't work that way, even with cables, amps, dacs, ect.

 


 

I accept that people hear a difference, but it is not the actual cable that causes the difference, it is the person listening who makes the difference. Blind testing proves that as then you make the experience of the cable the same for all. Suddenly the alleged difference cannot be heard anymore.
 

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Kind of short sighted don't you think? 128kbps MP3 vs FLAC. Some hear a difference and some don't. Sibilance on some headphones, it affects some and not others. Some people have higher pain tolerences than others, even though say 100 degrees is 100 degress. What you are suggesting is that if something is different, either it affects all of us or is doesn't. It just doesn't work that way, even with cables, amps, dacs, ect.

 


 

You are correct on some points. Clearly some folks do have better powers of discrimination than others, that is beyond question, and trained and younger listeners are normally better. However, for some of these things there have been no credible DBTs to suggest that anyone of any powers of discrimination can tell them apart. Interconnect Cables are a good example, apart from the one test using a MM cartridge nobody has been able to show a positive significant DBT on two normal cables. Funny thing is that it would be trivial to make cables sound different just ram on a zobel network and bob's your uncle...
 

 

[Anomaly2]

“How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference?”
Well, as this thread has already shown, it may not be possible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization.
 
Perhaps most of the “improvements” in sound quality is due to the placebo effect:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_plac.htm.
 
What happens when the placebo effect is removed?
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Wired%20Wisdom.pdf.
 
The cable lie and other myths: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf.

 

[Anomaly2]

Sorry for the double post.

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

I don't know if it need be that sophisticated.  With my HeadRoom UltraDesktop, I could hear a damningly clear difference between the stock and ALO SXC Cryo cable on my K702's.  I can hear a damningly clear difference between the Silver Dragon and stock cables on my HD650's.
 
Anyone here hearing clear differences and with amused fascination, concluding without doubt that based on the 'overwhelming' evidence out there, that they're experiencing an expensive illusion? 

i think speaker cables and and HP cables have a more pronounced effect than ICs.  i too had a Silver Dragon that really changed the sound of my PL2500.
 
i'm going to build a switch box with a simple toggle and enlist a friend to test my own DBTing abilities as soon as i get a chance.  i'll report my findings.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Quote:

So the kit and/or the person make the difference, not the cable.

The cable makes the difference. You just have to know the benefits or weakness' it can bring to your rig. And know what they sound like.

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

I can demonstrate on my gear that cables make a difference easy, go to a Seattle mini meet.

I made an attempt to attend the meet at the Bellevue Regional because someone was to bring HD 800s. Unfortunately, the "rigs" were loaded up about 30 minutes before it was scheduled to be over.
 

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

. . . or they don't.

 
I agree with that much of what you wrote.

 

[lonereaction]

Quote:

The cable makes the difference. You just have to know the benefits or weakness' it can bring to your rig. And know what they sound like.

Doesn't that bring the power of suggestion into the picture? Having to know it's traits before listening that is. If the difference is that big, wouldn't that be unnecessary?

 

[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

I'll make the offer more attractive to the objectivists.  You do not have to offer a million dollars - just do in my territory under my terms - I have even removed the risk of losing a million bucks.  This is my last offer.  Any takers?

If you won't come here to prove me wrong, why then would I go there to prove you wrong?  If you tell me you do not hear differences in cabling I do not wish to prove you otherwise - yet you are unable to afford me the same benefit of the doubt as I have given to you.  If you are unable to take me up on my offer than this thread may well be closed as the answer is loud and clear.  There are members in the audio community that believe cables make a difference as derived from personal experience with those members "how do you convince that audio cables do not make a difference?" - you will not.
 
 
There are documented cases where scientific research believed for many years that are later proved false - many due to false assumptions and simple oversights.  The reason there is very little documented evidence of positive DBT cable results may well be due to some flawed assumptions and simple oversights.
 
I will re-instated my opinion.  If this whatsis fellar offers up a million dollars in confirming DBT in the manner in which I prescribe - I will jump off a cliff if this million eventually doesn't get claimed - perhaps not by myself - but someone out there.
 
Some arguments claim that cable companies should prove that cables make a difference - in doing so more profits can be realised.  The opposite is true.  Hypothetically, if I was a cable manufacturer - firstly I would have to assume the the cost of such R&D which will run over a million dollars easily.  Secondly if I were to re-write the pages of science a prove via positive DBTs that cables in fact make a difference - what then?  I lose money.
 
I lose money because more manufacturers will jump into the market segment dramatically increasing the competition of the newly enlarged marketplace - margins get squeezed and I will eventually make less profit per unit to remain competitive.  Unable to compete with the marketing and distribution logistics of these large conglemerates (which will jump into the cable bandwagon) I will eventually go under.  After which the price goes back to the same levels (this is audiophilia, lets not forget).
 
Still why won't people commit to such a study to prove cables make a difference?  Because it makes jack diddly squat to nobody if cables do or do not make a difference - i.e. 99.9999 percent (yes, six nines!!!) of global population.  My audioquest cables become Mark Levinson cables, my Furutech cables become McIntosh cables - they will cost the same, maybe more.
 
I prefer it not to be known by the the larger scientific community that cables will influence sound presentation.  Its a Hush Hush secret amongst us subjectivist and a victory against corporate conglomeration. 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

The cable makes the difference. You just have to know the benefits or weakness' it can bring to your rig. And know what they sound like.

The reason why I say that is wrong is that there is often wildly varying descriptions of what a cable sounds like. If cables did sound different that difference would be consistently identifiable and agreed upon. So how can you know what it sounds like. I made two cables and sent one to a friend. I refused to tell him what I thought of mine and when he came to describe the alleged sound he came out with all sorts of descriptives. None were present in my kit. He was listening to himself and his kit, not the cable. 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 

If you won't come here to prove me wrong, why then would I go there to prove you wrong?  If you tell me you do not hear differences in cabling I do not wish to prove you otherwise - yet you are unable to afford me the same benefit of the doubt as I have given to you.  If you are unable to take me up on my offer than this thread may well be closed as the answer is loud and clear.  There are members in the audio community that believe cables make a difference as derived from personal experience with those members "how do you convince that audio cables do not make a difference?" - you will not.
 
If I ever get the chance to visit NW Australia I would love to hear your kit and cables. If you make it to Scotland I will arrange a blind test for you.
 
 
There are documented cases where scientific research believed for many years that are later proved false - many due to false assumptions and simple oversights.  The reason there is very little documented evidence of positive DBT cable results may well be due to some flawed assumptions and simple oversights.
 
Or it could be due to the results usually being negative. As I have shown in my other thread which i have linked to twice in this thread, there are 2 positives and 12 negatives of tests I can find reproduced on the internet. Since all show random chance to be the deciding factor, it would odd not to get some positive tests. To have more credibility for your argument, you should find proof.
 
I will re-instated my opinion.  If this whatsis fellar offers up a million dollars in confirming DBT in the manner in which I prescribe - I will jump off a cliff if this million eventually doesn't get claimed - perhaps not by myself - but someone out there.
 
James Randi, as is clear from his website which has details of the negotiations for those wanting to take his $1m test, never agrees unless he is sure the person will lose the test. He does not want to pay out $1m by someone getting a positive result by random chance. 
 
Some arguments claim that cable companies should prove that cables make a difference - in doing so more profits can be realised.  The opposite is true.  Hypothetically, if I was a cable manufacturer - firstly I would have to assume the the cost of such R&D which will run over a million dollars easily.  Secondly if I were to re-write the pages of science a prove via positive DBTs that cables in fact make a difference - what then?  I lose money.
 
You have lost me there. Are you saying it is wrong for cable companies to prove their products work?
 
I lose money because more manufacturers will jump into the market segment dramatically increasing the competition of the newly enlarged marketplace - margins get squeezed and I will eventually make less profit per unit to remain competitive.  Unable to compete with the marketing and distribution logistics of these large conglemerates (which will jump into the cable bandwagon) I will eventually go under.  After which the price goes back to the same levels (this is audiophilia, lets not forget).
 
You make assumptions which have no economic substance to them.
 
Still why won't people commit to such a study to prove cables make a difference?  Because it makes jack diddly squat to nobody if cables do or do not make a difference - i.e. 99.9999 percent (yes, six nines!!!) of global population.  My audioquest cables become Mark Levinson cables, my Furutech cables become McIntosh cables - they will cost the same, maybe more.
 
Yes, this market is only of interest to audiophiles and a tiny part of the population. 
 
I prefer it not to be known by the the larger scientific community that cables will influence sound presentation.  Its a Hush Hush secret amongst us subjectivist and a victory against corporate conglomeration. 
 
Whether you are serious or joking, such comments make everything you have written so far look stupid.