[townes]

I used to be a "balanced is better" person, but it is never that simple. It's always in the implementation and the use case.

True, I agree. Based on all comments here and on what I read, I will probably choose a XA25 over the 30.8.
If I will go directly from the Tambaqui DAC into the XA25, I will use Cardas XLR to RCA adapters (my DAC has only balanced outputs)
If I will use the HPA4 as preamp in between, I go balanced from DAC to preamp and unbalanced from preamp to XA25 (though this is not exactly recommended in the Benchmark manual)

 

[Roasty]

I've never had the pleasure to listen to a good Pass setup. I hope I will have the chance one day!

Till then, this will have to make do.. Just arrived today and managed to set it up after feeding dinner to the kids and turning on the telly in the other room..

Apollon Stereo 1et400a. Thing is built like a tank. I like the speaker posts. I specced with Sparkos Labs SS2590 discrete opamp, WBT0703Cu binding posts and 12v triggers. Tibor at Apollon is a pleasure to speak to and work with, and is prompt with replies.

Well, it is certainly a big bump up from WA33 alone. Sounds better than the AHB2, if I recall correctly. Sorry, gsx mini, wa22, hpa4 are no fight at all...

The first thing apparent is the ease with which music is presented. Feels like so much power on tap, and the diaphragm is just moving effortlessly. Crazy clear and transparent, yet so smooth and relaxed at the same time. I never realized there could be so much air up there. The low end has really cleaned up and much tighter too.

Sorry, not a man of many words and not so good with descriptions. But yes I think it was a good buy and I am looking forward to letting it run in and also try out the TC Phi with it soon. Plus it comes in a black chassis!! Half the battle won already lol..

 

[beemerphile]

True, I agree. Based on all comments here and on what I read, I will probably choose a XA25 over the 30.8.
If I will go directly from the Tambaqui DAC into the XA25, I will use Cardas XLR to RCA adapters (my DAC has only balanced outputs)
If I will use the HPA4 as preamp in between, I go balanced from DAC to preamp and unbalanced from preamp to XA25 (though this is not exactly recommended in the Benchmark manual)

Simplicity has merit. I didn't use to believe this but now I am convinced of it. It is something to be discarded only for good reason. If the lossless attenuation capability in the Tambaqui is well implemented, unless there is a need to accommodate additional inputs, what benefit would the pre-amp bring? Same as mine, this may be a use case worth considering the First Watt J2. I've not had the ability to A/B the XA25 and the J2, but if I was again in your situation I would try to arrange it. Back and forth between balanced and SE components seems the wrong road to travel in the pursuit of excellent sound. It may be that the practice you describe is not recommended by Benchmark for a reason.

 

[ThanatosVI]

I've never had the pleasure to listen to a good Pass setup. I hope I will have the chance one day!

Till then, this will have to make do.. Just arrived today and managed to set it up after feeding dinner to the kids and turning on the telly in the other room..



Apollon Stereo 1et400a. Thing is built like a tank. I like the speaker posts. I specced with Sparkos Labs SS2590 discrete opamp, WBT0703Cu binding posts and 12v triggers. Tibor at Apollon is a pleasure to speak to and work with, and is prompt with replies.

Well, it is certainly a big bump up from WA33 alone. Sounds better than the AHB2, if I recall correctly. Sorry, gsx mini, wa22, hpa4 are no fight at all...

The first thing apparent is the ease with which music is presented. Feels like so much power on tap, and the diaphragm is just moving effortlessly. Crazy clear and transparent, yet so smooth and relaxed at the same time. I never realized there could be so much air up there. The low end has really cleaned up and much tighter too.

Sorry, not a many of many words and not so good with descriptions. But yes I think it was a good buy and I am looking forward to letting it run in and also try out the TC Phi with it soon. Plus it comes in a black chassis!! Half the battle won already lol..

It's certainly nice to look at

 

[sahmen]

I imagine you're referring to the First Watt J2. Have you discovered any downsides in the manner it drives the Susvara as compared to the Pass Labs series amps that are being discussed here?

Personally, I have similar reasons to yours in preferring amps with balanced XLR inputs. All my mid-fi to TOTL Dacs are designed to output their best signals through their Balanced XLR connectors. For me, the Pass Labs/First Watt, and in fact, any amps with exclusively SE inputs are a no-no at this moment for those DAC-related reasons. That is why the J2, as well as the Pass Labs series amps with XLR inputs are the only ones that interest me in this debate, at least for now.

Another matter of interest that is slowly emerging is the idea that the names First Watt or Pass Labs per se might not necessarily guarantee optimal amp performance under all conditions, as I perhaps naively assumed... They are not all not equally good, or at least not equally optimal for driving the Susvara or any "X" set of speakers... That should be just valid as a matter of common sense... I wonder why that hasn't been obvious to me all along... But then again, I have not really given much thought to Pass Labs/First Watt amps, apart from being familiar with their general reputation in the industry as prestigious "big deal" amps.

 

[Sajid Amit]

I've never had the pleasure to listen to a good Pass setup. I hope I will have the chance one day!

Till then, this will have to make do.. Just arrived today and managed to set it up after feeding dinner to the kids and turning on the telly in the other room..



Apollon Stereo 1et400a. Thing is built like a tank. I like the speaker posts. I specced with Sparkos Labs SS2590 discrete opamp, WBT0703Cu binding posts and 12v triggers. Tibor at Apollon is a pleasure to speak to and work with, and is prompt with replies.

Well, it is certainly a big bump up from WA33 alone. Sounds better than the AHB2, if I recall correctly. Sorry, gsx mini, wa22, hpa4 are no fight at all...

The first thing apparent is the ease with which music is presented. Feels like so much power on tap, and the diaphragm is just moving effortlessly. Crazy clear and transparent, yet so smooth and relaxed at the same time. I never realized there could be so much air up there. The low end has really cleaned up and much tighter too.

Sorry, not a many of many words and not so good with descriptions. But yes I think it was a good buy and I am looking forward to letting it run in and also try out the TC Phi with it soon. Plus it comes in a black chassis!! Half the battle won already lol..

Congratulations! What cable is that with the Susvaras?

 

[Roasty]

Congratulations! What cable is that with the Susvaras?

That's an Arctic Cables Palladium series, with speaker tap adaptor by Triode Wire Labs.

 

[Sajid Amit]

That's an Arctic Cables Palladium series, with speaker tap adaptor by Triode Wire Labs.

Thanks. Looking it up. Loving how it looks with the Susvaras.

 

[beemerphile]

I imagine you're referring to the First Watt J2. Have you discovered any downsides in the manner it drives the Susvara as compared to the Pass Labs series amps that are being discussed here?

I have not. Other than that damned itch that we in the hobby get that there might be Something Better out there, I have no reason to consider a different power amp for the Susvara. I have heard one reviewer say that the XA25 brings "extra heft" that the J2 lacks. These comments were made in reference to speaker installations. With the Susvara I find the J2 to be in no way limited in "heft". I am able to use mid-level attenuation at volume levels that are as high as I desire to operate. The amp has plenty of reserve to handle the dynamic peaks with no hint of strain. More "heft" couldn't hurt, but it isn't needed for my case. That would leave the decision to be made on the basis of tone quality and listening enjoyment. Because of its higher power reserve and better low impedance performance, the XA25 would be more flexible towards different speaker applications if that is important to you. I don't know how a J2 would compare with the XA25 on the basis of tone and listening enjoyment (itch, itch), but I would expect it to be a decision based on nuance. The same review suggests that the J2 has a fighting chance, if not an upper hand. I think it quite possible that the J2 would best the XA30.8 handily on these attributes (and I have no itch to scratch there).

Personally, I have similar reasons to yours in preferring amps with balanced XLR inputs. All my mid-fi to TOTL Dacs are designed to output their best signals through their Balanced XLR connectors. For me, the Pass Labs/First Watt, and in fact, any amps with exclusively SE inputs are a no-no at this moment for those DAC-related reasons. That is why the J2, as well as the Pass Labs series amps with XLR inputs are the only ones that interest me in this debate, at least for now.

If I had a DAC that I was completely happy with, I'd never change it just to accommodate a different power amp. The difference between high quality power amps that are properly spec'ed for the application (important) is not great enough to warrant this. I would also never use balanced/single-ended conversion, but that is just me. I think the J2 and the XA30.8 are the only balanced Pass power amps that make sense for the Susvara. After that, you are out of Class A construction and are buying power (cost, weight, heat, and complexity) that you clearly do not need. If I wanted a competitor past these, I'd look outside the Pass offerings. One that has always interested me is the vintage Pioneer M-22. The only thing to stop me would be my bad memory of a well-loved vintage amp that failed dramatically even after being professionally re-capped and restored. I would find it as logical to re-marry my ex-wife. EDITED TO ADD: The M-22 is an SE amp, so I had mis-remembered this. My consideration of it was not for a headphone application.

Another matter of interest that is slowly emerging is the idea that the names First Watt or Pass Labs per se might not necessarily guarantee optimal amp performance under all conditions, as I perhaps naively assumed... They are not all not equally good, or at least not equally optimal for driving the Susvara or any "X" set of speakers... That should be just valid as a matter of common sense... I wonder why that hasn't been obvious to me all along... But then again, I have not really given much thought to Pass Labs/First Watt amps, apart from being familiar with their general reputation in the industry as prestigious "big deal" amps.

Nelson Pass is very forthright in discussing this regarding his various amp designs. For instance, in the F8 Owner's Manual Nelson ends with this...

This might not be the amplifier for you, but I think it deserves a listen. You will have noticed, I enjoy amplifiers with a little personality. They don't have to measure perfectly, they just have to sound good. This is a simple little Class A amplifier with a very nice personality, and I hope you like it.

 

[donato]

I imagine you're referring to the First Watt J2. Have you discovered any downsides in the manner it drives the Susvara as compared to the Pass Labs series amps that are being discussed here?

Personally, I have similar reasons to yours in preferring amps with balanced XLR inputs. All my mid-fi to TOTL Dacs are designed to output their best signals through their Balanced XLR connectors. For me, the Pass Labs/First Watt, and in fact, any amps with exclusively SE inputs are a no-no at this moment for those DAC-related reasons. That is why the J2, as well as the Pass Labs series amps with XLR inputs are the only ones that interest me in this debate, at least for now.

Another matter of interest that is slowly emerging is the idea that the names First Watt or Pass Labs per se might not necessarily guarantee optimal amp performance under all conditions, as I perhaps naively assumed... They are not all not equally good, or at least not equally optimal for driving the Susvara or any "X" set of speakers... That should be just valid as a matter of common sense... I wonder why that hasn't been obvious to me all along... But then again, I have not really given much thought to Pass Labs/First Watt amps, apart from being familiar with their general reputation in the industry as prestigious "big deal" amps.

You bring up some valid points re: balanced and single ended. like I said, it depends on the implementation and the use case. I'm going May balanced out to XP12 to XA25 single ended. The XP12 single ended output maybe isn't the best implementation since it just simply comes off of the positive leg of the XLR output (or maybe another way to look at it is I'm only using half of the circuitry I paid for). The May DAC's single ended output does have dedicated circuitry just to drive the single ended output, so I certainly could use a single ended preamp without much concern for it being gimped. And of course, any other setup will be different as you noted depending on the specifics on the equipment involved.

 

[donato]

I have not. Other than that damned itch that we in the hobby get that there might be Something Better out there, I have no reason to consider a different power amp for the Susvara. I have heard one reviewer say that the XA25 brings "extra heft" that the J2 lacks. These comments were made in reference to speaker installations. With the Susvara I find the J2 to be in no way limited in "heft". I am able to use mid-level attenuation at volume levels that are as high as I desire to operate. The amp has plenty of reserve to handle the dynamic peaks with no hint of strain. More "heft" couldn't hurt, but it isn't needed for my case. That would leave the decision to be made on the basis of tone quality and listening enjoyment. Because of its higher power reserve and better low impedance performance, the XA25 would be more flexible towards different speaker applications if that is important to you. I don't know how a J2 would compare with the XA25 on the basis of tone and listening enjoyment (itch, itch), but I would expect it to be a decision based on nuance. The same review suggests that the J2 has a fighting chance, if not an upper hand. I think it quite possible that the J2 would best the XA30.8 handily on these attributes (and I have no itch to scratch there).

Herb Reichert also has more listening notes on J2, F8, XA25 but as you noted, it's with speakers so it's hard to know how this necessarily translates to use with the Susvara. He does briefly mention use with headphones. I came very, very close to buying a J2 and maybe I still will at some point to try it out.

Some excerpts from https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-43-first-watt-f8-power-amplifier-page-2

The XA25 delivered conspicuously more daylight and apparent speed than either the J2 or F8. The XA25's well-focused lower octaves, in concert with its inherent hyper-transparency, enhanced El Din's vocal articulations and made the tar sound crisper and more percussive, its skin more tightly stretched. Now, instead of tar tacks, I saw musicians in thobes and keffiyeh.

With the XA25, the second track's drum whacks pounded the floor with greater intensity. The Pass Labs amp projected sounds into the room with a more tangible dynamic swing and a crisper clarity than either the First Watt J2 or F8. Overall, the XA25 made a bolder, clearer sonic presentation than the more intimate-sounding F8.

I asked Nelson Pass how he would characterize the sound of these three designs. "It is perhaps not oversimplifying to say that the XA25 has a 3rd harmonic character and the F8 has a very 2nd harmonic personality," he said. "The J2 sits between them."

I sort of agree, but that characterization is perhaps "oversimplifying." The XA25's exceptional transparency is free of even the slightest hints of second harmonic character. But I would not characterize either the J2 or the F8 as overtly second harmonic. In a variety of bunker systems, which include the incredible, low-distortion JPS Labs Abyss AB-1266 Phi TC and RAAL-requisite SR1a headphones, the J2 exhibits an extremely slight, almost subliminal-grained opacity that is not present in the F8 or XA25.

 

[yolosauce]

My dekoni fenestrated pads are arriving today. I look forward to the 10 minutes of anger and anxiety of removing and reinstalling susvara pads.

 

[beemerphile]

Herb Reichert also has more listening notes on J2, F8, XA25 but as you noted, it's with speakers so it's hard to know how this necessarily translates to use with the Susvara. He does briefly mention use with headphones. I came very, very close to buying a J2 and maybe I still will at some point to try it out.

They are like flowers in a well tended garden. All are pretty - this one for this reason and that one for that. I am at the point in my life (retired old man with declining hearing) where it is time to just pick one and enjoy it. In words attributed to Rabbi H. Schachtel, "happiness is not having what you want, but wanting what you have". I know it is against the ethos of the audiophile existence, but that makes more sense to me each day that I live. Going from good to great makes sense. Going from great to hopefully greater than that seems the very definition of audiophilia nervosa. I continue to fight this, but I think my audiophilia pruritus would be better treated with pramoxine than with a new amplifier.

 

[MatW]

My dekoni fenestrated pads are arriving today. I look forward to the 10 minutes of anger and anxiety of removing and reinstalling susvara pads.

Yeah I've never tried to remove the pads and I'm a little apprehensive to do so ... Looking forward to hearing how it went... and how you like them. I'm also considering these, esp. if the pads are deeper. I am not sure which of the 4 types to get. Most of you seem to have chosen the fenestrated one, so far.

 

[Palyodgree]

Sajid I’ve been reading more of your posts of the Susvara headphone however I have to stop and leave, you are becoming a bad influence as I just recently set up my first desk top system using the He1000SE .

Before I say good bye i have a comment,.....”Nelson Pass” one of the true greats in amplifier design , back in the day my very first taste of high end I bought a used Nelson Pass Stasis 3 amplifier to power Magnapan 3a speakers , high current not watts per channel was of course needed to bring the Maggie’s to life And finally Sajid i implore you to try a Sablon Audio USB cable in your fine front end.