[gazzington]

These are the issues that worry me. Never bought a £400+ headphone before that did not work. Shocking

All these issues do give one pause however.

How is Hifiman’s customer service / warranty in general?
I mean if you get a pair that are solid but poop out in a few years, do they take care of you?

I know Audeze is very good in this regard.

 

[chris.d.m.]

Quality control risks aside for a min, look forward to hearing these in a few days when they arrive.
Must say, some reports of a forward top end concern me but, I'll soon judge for myself I guess. Sensitive to too much focus up there.

If I could just find an LCD X signature but, without the upper mids / low top recession...I'd be pretty darn happy.
...might ultimately land up being the Auteur but they're a bit outta reach $-wise at this moment.

So for now, on to check out the Sundara.

 

[Rhamnetin]

Quality control risks aside for a min, look forward to hearing these in a few days when they arrive.
Must say, some reports of a forward top end concern me but, I'll soon judge for myself I guess. Sensitive to too much focus up there.

If I could just find an LCD X signature but, without the upper mids / low top recession...I'd be pretty darn happy.
...might ultimately land up being the Auteur but they're a bit outta reach $-wise at this moment.

So for now, on to check out the Sundara.

Bass won't be on the same level as the LCD-X but I think you'll like the Sundara (if yours works). The LCD-X actually sounded brighter to me than the Sundara, but the Sundara is anything but slow. The only headphones I've listened to with bass that really comes close to the Audeze LCD lineup are the ZMF Blackwood/Ori (Blackwood suffers more from being fully closed back), though the Abyss Phi should be there too based on comparisons I've read with the LCD-4.

Part of me thinks this thread title should be changed. The Sundara isn't an upgraded HE-400i, it's a new headphone and it outclasses the HE-560.

 

[chris.d.m.]

Bass won't be on the same level as the LCD-X but I think you'll like the Sundara (if yours works). The LCD-X actually sounded brighter to me than the Sundara, but the Sundara is anything but slow. The only headphones I've listened to with bass that really comes close to the Audeze LCD lineup are the ZMF Blackwood/Ori (Blackwood suffers more from being fully closed back), though the Abyss Phi should be there too based on comparisons I've read with the LCD-4.

Part of me thinks this thread title should be changed. The Sundara isn't an upgraded HE-400i, it's a new headphone and it outclasses the HE-560.

It’s interesting to me that in comparing to my higher end studio monitors the X’s had fairly true bottom end / low mid response. I loved that about them.
So anything too much lacking in those regions will be a tough sell for me personally. I’ll hear Sundara early next week and know better.

From what I hear & my interpretation, I’d think the Auteur would get into a X-like lower frequency fulfillment area but, more linear engagement overall and, perhaps more immediate & not as relaxed.

If true, and I’m not misunderstanding, they might be the closest to an ideal for my studio related needs.
ie; engaging yet w/o any glaring dips or bumps. Not a fan of eq’ing hp’s and plausible phase issues.

With sooo much $$$ that goes into several areas in an analog studio, it does however make dropping 1k+ on cans a much tougher rationalization for how much literal “mix” head time they get, compared to monitors that is.
Priorities, decisions etc!

 

[Rhamnetin]

It’s interesting to me that in comparing to my higher end studio monitors the X’s had fairly true bottom end / low mid response. I loved that about them.
So anything too much lacking in those regions will be a tough sell for me personally. I’ll hear Sundara early next week and know better.

From what I hear & my interpretation, I’d think the Auteur would get into a X-like lower frequency fulfillment area but, more linear engagement overall and, perhaps more immediate & not as relaxed.

If true, and I’m not misunderstanding, they might be the closest to an ideal for my studio related needs.
ie; engaging yet w/o any glaring dips or bumps. Not a fan of eq’ing hp’s and plausible phase issues.

With sooo much $$$ that goes into several areas in an analog studio, it does however make dropping 1k+ on cans a much tougher rationalization for how much literal “mix” head time they get, compared to monitors that is.
Priorities, decisions etc!

If it's just bass extension you seek (and not so much the incredible fullness and texture and impact AND extension of the LCD lineup) then the Auteur may indeed suffice, as the Eikon appears to in Tyll's measurements:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ZMFEikon.pdf

The Auteur uses the same driver as you probably know, it is an open back more neutral version.

There is also the Focal Clear which everyone seems to like, Tyll said it was the most balanced headphone sound signature he has ever heard, and people often say it is 90-95% of the Utopia. But the sub 20 Hz response is weak:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/focal-clear-over-ear-open-headphones

Below $1,000, the ZMF Ori has the bass extension (and overall excellent bass quality, near Audeze LCD-like) and no ugly recessions, but isn't what one would think of as a mixing headphone I suppose. Not sure what else has that top tier level of bass extension for below $1,000 beyond Audeze and ZMF, and when seeking accuracy that is an even tougher challenge.

 

[chris.d.m.]

If it's just bass extension you seek (and not so much the incredible fullness and texture and impact AND extension of the LCD lineup) then the Auteur may indeed suffice, as the Eikon appears to in Tyll's measurements:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ZMFEikon.pdf

The Auteur uses the same driver as you probably know, it is an open back more neutral version.

There is also the Focal Clear which everyone seems to like, Tyll said it was the most balanced headphone sound signature he has ever heard, and people often say it is 90-95% of the Utopia. But the sub 20 Hz response is weak:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/focal-clear-over-ear-open-headphones

Below $1,000, the ZMF Ori has the bass extension (and overall excellent bass quality, near Audeze LCD-like) and no ugly recessions, but isn't what one would think of as a mixing headphone I suppose. Not sure what else has that top tier level of bass extension for below $1,000 beyond Audeze and ZMF, and when seeking accuracy that is an even tougher challenge.

I should say it's definitely not just bass extension that I think is important, but the fullness extension etc of the X. Without the upper dip.

I've spent some time with the Clear and I agree it's a very good balance, albeit with just a tad less sub region than would be nice IMO.

Of course with all this, amps can bring that extra little thing that make it an overall more appreciable compromise. Really digging the Gilmore lately. Curious to hear Sundara through it.

 

[chris.d.m.]

While preparing to check these out in a few days, wondering...are there and Sundara fans out there that prefer it over there other options in the under 1k region ? Or, maybe not such a fan of them after living w them for a while ?

Are there any upgrade cables that made a positive difference to Sundara? Shorter thicker, copper, silver ? under $100 lets say.
Appreciate any thoughts.

 

[peterzzz]

While preparing to check these out in a few days, wondering...are there and Sundara fans out there that prefer it over there other options in the under 1k region ? Or, maybe not such a fan of them after living w them for a while ?

Are there any upgrade cables that made a positive difference to Sundara? Shorter thicker, copper, silver ? under $100 lets say.
Appreciate any thoughts.

Still really like my Sundara but I've not heard many of the competing headphones I made myself a silver plated OCC cable for it though, terminated with a 2.5mm TRRS jack in order to drive it balanced for around 75USD worth of parts off of ebay (I already had a XLR4 to 2.5 TRRS female converter). Going balanced improved the soundstage a little and filled out the bass (better impact), not a huge difference, but noticable.

 

[seanwee]

While preparing to check these out in a few days, wondering...are there and Sundara fans out there that prefer it over there other options in the under 1k region ? Or, maybe not such a fan of them after living w them for a while ?

LCD XC
More peaky, slightly better instrument separation with similar resolution. A tad deeper soundstage.

Focal Listen
Not as peaky as the XC, loses out in detail. Bass quality is lower. Mid sound hollowed out.

Acoustic Research H1
Significantly more forward sounding, smaller soundstage, doesn't have the crispness. Loses handily to the Sundara. Doesn't have the rumble of the Sundara.


LCD X
Softer sounding edge, not as sharp, textures lose out a bit. Detail and instrument separation are better. Stronger mid bass impact. Depth and imaging are clearer. Lows are more powerful in general. I'd say these are a small upgrade overall over the Sundara despite the big price difference (dammit diminishing returns )


STAX SR-009
Micro texture monster, bass drums sound wierd, everything else sounds grand. Instrument spacing isn't very spacious yet clarity is good. Soundstage is deeper than wide with very good echoes and decays. Sometimes vocals sound like the singers are pinching their noses, very peculiar :/

Very tiring listen

Tl:dr, I think the Sundaras are the best sounding headphones for $500 and maybe even above.

Still waiting for my local audio store to bring in the Ananda.

 

[chris.d.m.]

Tl:dr, I think the Sundaras are the best sounding headphones for $500 and maybe even above.

Still waiting for my local audio store to bring in the Ananda.

I think that could be it, that for around $500 they're a best bet of sorts. I wasn't into the AFO personally. Too warm and U shaped for my needs. We'll see how Sundara is in comparison.
If I could stretch budget up higher down the road, the Auteur has me curious.

I would have never sold the LCD X but I couldn't live with their upper mid/low top recession.
My hope is that Sundara get closer to a more linear sound. I realize they may not have the X's low end impact though.

 

[ufospls2]

Hey Guys,

After having had to sell all my gear apart from the CA Atlas to pay some medical bills, I was hoping I would be able to buy a less expensive pair of headphones so I still had something over ear. Now, that is not to say the Sundara is a cheap pair of headphones, they aren’t, but in comparison to the Susvara, they are certainly more affordable. I’ll do a quick comparison, then talk more about just the Sundara, as its hardly fair to do a hardcore direct comparison between the two.

Susvara does everything better as you might expect. Better imaging, deeper soundstage, a bit more bass, far higher quality of clarity, detail and dynamics. However, with all that being said, the Sundara, in my humble opinion, rocks.

They are a bit bass light for me, especially sub bass wise. I listen to lots of weird electronica, so this is something I pay close attention to. I’ve been boosting the bass a little bit with EQ, and it really helps. I know EQ isn’t for everyone, but I don’t mind using it at all. The bass is a bit “one note” in comparison to more capable headphones. There is a bit of a lack of dynamics, but for the money, its some of the better bass I have heard. Definitely gets a thumbs up from me, with a bit of a boost from EQ.

The mids are a tiny bit pulled back, but I’m not hearing any hardcore suck outs that make them funny sounding. Again, in comparison to the Susvara, these are less capable at rendering the small details in the music, but they are no slouch.

The treble is great. Its to my preference, a tiny bit bright. I think that some who are sensitive to treble might find these a bit troublesome in comparison to some of the competitors in this price range. However, they are not as bright as the HE560, sort of a middle road between the them and some other darker headphones.

One thing to note which I have never experienced before is that at lower volumes, these don’t really shine. I think this might be due to their lack of dynamics and micro detail. Something like the Susvara is great at any volume, but the Sundara really starts to shine at medium to high volumes.

These headphones are sort of a medium sensitivity at 94db/mw. Way easier to drive than the Susvara, but not as easy as some headphones. You will definitely benefit from some sort of amp with these headphones. Right now, I’m using my iFi Micro iDSD BL, and it seems to be a great pairing. Its just something to consider, as people who buy this headphone might not already have an amp in their stable, and it is an added expense to consider.

The build quality, so far, is actually pretty darn solid. They don’t feel “premium” like some headphones do, but again, at the price these can be had for new, its perfectly acceptable. What is *not* acceptable is the report of people having driver failure out of the box, or a couple weeks down the road after buying them. There is a tiny bit creaking if you flex them back and forth, but once they are on your head there is none to be noticed. The adjustments to get them to fit your head are **really** stiff. Its not easy to get them to move. I guess this is preferable to the HE1000V1, which had a tendency to become too loose in terms of headband adjustment. These don’t swivel at all, which is not good for some peoples heads. The Sundara fit me just fine, and are pretty comfortable, but some might struggle.

The cable, for the price, is ok. Could be a little bit longer, but its not too bad. I think if you are going to be using these for a good long while, a cheap cable upgrade might be worth it in terms of ergonomics. Its something I might look into. Whilst the 3.5mm connectors at the headphone end are a better idea than the 2.5mm’s present on other Hifiman headphones, its kinda dumb that you can’t use other Hifiman cables with these. I hope Hifiman sticks with the 3.5mm from here on out, rather than continuing to change their standard.

I think that for the price, and just in general, these are a great pair of headphones. I prefer them to the LCD-2C, which is almost double the price. I also prefer these to both the AEON closed and the AEON open. The reports of drivers dying is very worrying, but so far my pair are ok. If something goes wrong, I will definitely report back. In terms of sound, these are more to my preference than the HE560, which was a what, $1000(?) headphone just a few short years ago. It appears that Hifiman, whilst picking dumb prices for their TOTL headphones, is trickling down some of the things they have learned in making those TOTL cans, and that is great!

All in all, the Sundara is a great headphone for the price in my opinion. If you can get it on sale, even better.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

I think that could be it, that for around $500 they're a best bet of sorts. I wasn't into the AFO personally. Too warm and U shaped for my needs. We'll see how Sundara is in comparison.
If I could stretch budget up higher down the road, the Auteur has me curious.

I would have never sold the LCD X but I couldn't live with their upper mid/low top recession.
My hope is that Sundara get closer to a more linear sound. I realize they may not have the X's low end impact though.

I feel exactly the same way about the LCD X. It has the best bass I’ve ever heard at any price point. I could even get over the weight. But can Audeze tune a damn headphone with some upper mids and lower treble for crying out loud!!! If the X had that it would be my endgame. It’s that good.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Hey Guys,

After having had to sell all my gear apart from the CA Atlas to pay some medical bills, I was hoping I would be able to buy a less expensive pair of headphones so I still had something over ear. Now, that is not to say the Sundara is a cheap pair of headphones, they aren’t, but in comparison to the Susvara, they are certainly more affordable. I’ll do a quick comparison, then talk more about just the Sundara, as its hardly fair to do a hardcore direct comparison between the two.

Susvara does everything better as you might expect. Better imaging, deeper soundstage, a bit more bass, far higher quality of clarity, detail and dynamics. However, with all that being said, the Sundara, in my humble opinion, rocks.

They are a bit bass light for me, especially sub bass wise. I listen to lots of weird electronica, so this is something I pay close attention to. I’ve been boosting the bass a little bit with EQ, and it really helps. I know EQ isn’t for everyone, but I don’t mind using it at all. The bass is a bit “one note” in comparison to more capable headphones. There is a bit of a lack of dynamics, but for the money, its some of the better bass I have heard. Definitely gets a thumbs up from me, with a bit of a boost from EQ.

The mids are a tiny bit pulled back, but I’m not hearing any hardcore suck outs that make them funny sounding. Again, in comparison to the Susvara, these are less capable at rendering the small details in the music, but they are no slouch.

The treble is great. Its to my preference, a tiny bit bright. I think that some who are sensitive to treble might find these a bit troublesome in comparison to some of the competitors in this price range. However, they are not as bright as the HE560, sort of a middle road between the them and some other darker headphones.

One thing to note which I have never experienced before is that at lower volumes, these don’t really shine. I think this might be due to their lack of dynamics and micro detail. Something like the Susvara is great at any volume, but the Sundara really starts to shine at medium to high volumes.

These headphones are sort of a medium sensitivity at 94db/mw. Way easier to drive than the Susvara, but not as easy as some headphones. You will definitely benefit from some sort of amp with these headphones. Right now, I’m using my iFi Micro iDSD BL, and it seems to be a great pairing. Its just something to consider, as people who buy this headphone might not already have an amp in their stable, and it is an added expense to consider.

The build quality, so far, is actually pretty darn solid. They don’t feel “premium” like some headphones do, but again, at the price these can be had for new, its perfectly acceptable. What is *not* acceptable is the report of people having driver failure out of the box, or a couple weeks down the road after buying them. There is a tiny bit creaking if you flex them back and forth, but once they are on your head there is none to be noticed. The adjustments to get them to fit your head are **really** stiff. Its not easy to get them to move. I guess this is preferable to the HE1000V1, which had a tendency to become too loose in terms of headband adjustment. These don’t swivel at all, which is not good for some peoples heads. The Sundara fit me just fine, and are pretty comfortable, but some might struggle.

The cable, for the price, is ok. Could be a little bit longer, but its not too bad. I think if you are going to be using these for a good long while, a cheap cable upgrade might be worth it in terms of ergonomics. Its something I might look into. Whilst the 3.5mm connectors at the headphone end are a better idea than the 2.5mm’s present on other Hifiman headphones, its kinda dumb that you can’t use other Hifiman cables with these. I hope Hifiman sticks with the 3.5mm from here on out, rather than continuing to change their standard.

I think that for the price, and just in general, these are a great pair of headphones. I prefer them to the LCD-2C, which is almost double the price. I also prefer these to both the AEON closed and the AEON open. The reports of drivers dying is very worrying, but so far my pair are ok. If something goes wrong, I will definitely report back. In terms of sound, these are more to my preference than the HE560, which was a what, $1000(?) headphone just a few short years ago. It appears that Hifiman, whilst picking dumb prices for their TOTL headphones, is trickling down some of the things they have learned in making those TOTL cans, and that is great!

All in all, the Sundara is a great headphone for the price in my opinion. If you can get it on sale, even better.

You just need to go up one more level with Hifiman to get incredible sub bass. The HEX V2, Ananda, HEK V2, and Susvara all have it in spades. They also have much larger ear-shaped earpads for greatly improved comfort. I’m sorry but ears are not round.

 

[Paddy]

H

You just need to go up one more level with Hifiman to get incredible sub bass. The HEX V2, Ananda, HEK V2, and Susvara all have it in spades. They also have much larger ear-shaped earpads for greatly improved comfort. I’m sorry but ears are not round.

So Ananda has deeper sub-bass than sundara?

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

H


So Ananda has deeper sub-bass than sundara?

I’ve never heard the Sundara, but it’s supposed to replace the 560 and 400i. The Ananda definitely has more sub bass than those cans. Frequency response graphs also show the Ananda definitely has less sub bass roll off down to 20 hz and below as well compared to the Sundara. I definitely don’t feel the Ananda lacks any sub bass. It’s actually one of its strengths, in my opinion.