[TeskR]

  it is on both my HE-400 and HE-400i. probably not affecting anything, I personally wouldn't risk messing with things around the driver. If you are brave, let me know how it goes

gave them a bit of a rub with my finger and they didn't budge so I guess I will leave them on their haha.

 

[conquerator2]

I've removed those damn rings so many times I've lost count.  The first time can be the trickiest, just don't stress it.  Like spurxii, I just use my fingernails.  Gives you a better feel for the pressure being exerted, as opposed to using a "tool", which I've also used after just trimming my nails.

As for process, start at 3 o'clock and move slowly toward noon or 6.  The tabs are at about 1:30 and 4:30.  You may have to work your finger around the ring to loosen it up.  Once the first tab pops, the others should follow fairly easily.

Good luck.

Thanks I'll use your method...
But, just how delicate would you say the tabs are? Are they as durable as the plastic attachment rings for the pads?

 

[ThurstonX]

Thanks I'll use your method...
But, just how delicate would you say the tabs are? Are they as durable as the plastic attachment rings for the pads?

 
Any potential problem shouldn't come from the tabs, which are just very slight protrusions from the ring, but the ring itself, with is thin plastic.  And yet, as written, I've yet to break one.  I've only read about a couple people who have.  Just use common sense (like DON'T FORCE IT!  If it's being stubborn, be patient and work it gradually) and you should be fine.
 
HTH.

 

[conquerator2]

Well, the mod will be done on Monday due to the 'grilles' I bought being not suitable [big holes, yetp but the air/mesh ratio is week, the mesh joints are pretty wide]. So, I'll either find a good meshed trash bin or I'll just buy a cheap ventilator and use its mesh [those meshes are pretty good, look - http://kvalitnispotrebice.cz/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/levny-ventilator-sencor.jpg]
 
Anyway, just managed to pop the rings off using my nails first to loosen it up and then a thin card to spring them out.
 
Now, I wonder, is there any trick to putting them back on? 

 

 

[ThurstonX]

  Well, the mod will be done on Monday due to the 'grilles' I bought being not suitable [big holes, yetp but the air/mesh ratio is week, the mesh joints are pretty wide]. So, I'll either find a good meshed trash bin or I'll just buy a cheap ventilator and use its mesh [those meshes are pretty good, look - http://kvalitnispotrebice.cz/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/levny-ventilator-sencor.jpg]
 
Anyway, just managed to pop the rings off using my nails first to loosen it up and then a thin card to spring them out.
 
Now, I wonder, is there any trick to putting them back on? 

 

 
Bummer about the grills, but glad you were able to remove the rings.  re: getting them back on, the trick I've found is to either seriously thin, or even trim very slightly, the four points that line up with the slots where the tabs go in.  If the rings are too thick there, it's a serious PITA getting the tabs back in.  That's for custom grills.  Obviously stock should be fine.
 
I just ordered a pair each of these:
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-80mm-FLAME-Computer-Fan-Grill-Gloss-Black-Acrylic-Cooling-Cover-Mod-/161222356806
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-80mm-FLAME-SPIRAL-Computer-Fan-Grill-Gloss-Black-Acrylic-Cooling-Cover-/161222356855
 
No idea how they'll be, but at least the open parts are uniform.  They might be a bit on the thick side.  According to the seller, they are exactly 84mm from outer edge to outer edge, which is 2 or 3 mm too small.  But the mounting hole protrusions should allow them to work.  I'm pretty sure the 92mm versions would be far too big.  We shall see.

 

[conquerator2]

   
Bummer about the grills, but glad you were able to remove the rings.  re: getting them back on, the trick I've found is to either seriously thin, or even trim very slightly, the four points that line up with the slots where the tabs go in.  If the rings are too thick there, it's a serious PITA getting the tabs back in.  That's for custom grills.  Obviously stock should be fine.
 
I just ordered a pair each of these:
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-80mm-FLAME-Computer-Fan-Grill-Gloss-Black-Acrylic-Cooling-Cover-Mod-/161222356806
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-80mm-FLAME-SPIRAL-Computer-Fan-Grill-Gloss-Black-Acrylic-Cooling-Cover-/161222356855
 
No idea how they'll be, but at least the open parts are uniform.  They might be a bit on the thick side.  According to the seller, they are exactly 84mm from outer edge to outer edge, which is 2 or 3 mm too small.  But the mounting hole protrusions should allow them to work.  I'm pretty sure the 92mm versions would be far too big.  We shall see.

Managed to get them back on.
You realize that these might very well worsen the SQ, don't you? 

 
As for the sound with and without the grills, I am slightly disappointed. Day 1 impressions follow.
I do hear the slight bounce-backs when I run white noise through them but in real song usage the difference seems much smaller.
A little more openness. Slightly better imaging. Maybe a bit clearer treble. I honestly wouldn' bet expecting much improvement, as the HE-560 is pretty impressive but reading the mod guide, the differences should been a bit clearer... But what I hear seems to attribute to maybe like 5%...
 
Maybe it works better with the 500, maybe it will improve the 400i more but with the 560 the difference is pretty small on a good setup IMO [NFB7 - SA31SE].
 
Covering the grills with your hands [or just partial covering] creates a massive difference in comparison.So do Focus and Focus-A pads. 
 
I think I can distinguish the difference - that it is noticeable, but I am not completely sure.
 
And that is why I will do a controlled test tomorrow [this is something I'd probably recommend to anyone who says the difference is big] - I'll get a second individual, who will switch between three different modes - obstructing the open headphones with the stock grills, putting them away and altering [at will, like 5 seconds obstructing, 5 put away, etc.] I'll have my eyes close so I won't know which one he chose. I selected a few segments from different songs where I believe the difference is discernable. I'll play one and see if I can guess which one fo the three choices he did and then again, randomizing each time. Pretty simple and will confirm whether I can consciously tell the difference, or not.
 
 I'll also test the 400i tomorrow [and probably will perform the same controlled test, unless the differences are clearer] 
 
I will or won't do the grill mod depending on the outcome. 
The way the mod is described, however, made me think noticeable differences will be clearly heard but this doesn't seem to be the case entirely. I'll be wiser after tomorrow.
 
After day 1, the possible 5% of difference or so [as it is now] is not enough to mandate the mod, or make it really worth it. I know Jerg himself repeatedly that the differences are subtle. I understand that the mod is written for the 500 and thus it probably does more good [as I guess, it should do to the 400i then, which I'll find out]. Still, I was expecting a bit more, going by all the psitive, enthusiastic feedback in the 560 thread...
 
Stay tuned for tomorrow - for the controlled tests and 400i no-grills impressions! 

 

 

[ThurstonX]

  Managed to get them back on.
You realize that these might very well worsen the SQ, don't you? 

 

 
Sure, that's why it's an experiment.  That's how we roll here in The Laboratory 

 

[spurxiii]

The SQ change is small and at best 5% but still noticeable. I'm keeping it mainly for the looks

 

[conquerator2]

Ok, the controlled listening for the grill on/off/switch for the 560 was a very mixed result.
 
I was consistently able to tell when the grills were on and off, without much problems - about 90% - so theoretical difference is there, indeed!
In practice, however, the difference is smaller. I listened to 8 instrumental and one vocal track.
In 6/8, I was mostly guessing and the correct/wrong ratio never really went over 50%, so in these songs, the difference was either too small or it did not affect it to a desirable margin.
In the other two instrumentals, I fared a bit better - somewhere around 70% of success so there seemed to be a distinguishable difference, but I really had to strain my ears hard to hear it. A bit more air to it slightly better imaging, though the stage did not seem much wider... about 5%, probably.
With the vocals, the 8 - 9khz dropped seems to help by reducing slight sibilance from very little to less than very little... and the vocals did sound a bit more open... and with more instruments, they seemed to image a bit better and stretch a bit wider... The consistency was around 80% and the difference might have been a bit more obvious, say 10% with vocals and somewhere north of 5% with instruments.
It's worth mentioning that I chose 30 second segments of each track, which I thought would be desirable for this particular task.
 
I'll probably modify it next time to longer, like 60 seconds, segments and either with, without or half with/without to give a more reasonable chance to my ears to pick the differences. I'll do more controlled tests this week.
 
I'll be also doing the grill mod on the 560 and 400i tomorrow [mostly because it is a possibility] and compare it to without the grills and with the modded grills against the stock grills  on the pink-noise track, where the difference is biggest now... Then I'll be using both headphones with modded grills for a week and then switch back to stock.
 
So far the difference really is very small though and it is easily the least effective modification I've done so far.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Ok, the controlled listening for the grill on/off/switch for the 560 was a very mixed result.

I was consistently able to tell when the grills were on and off, without much problems - about 90% - so theoretical difference is there, indeed!
In practice, however, the difference is smaller. I listened to 8 instrumental and one vocal track.
In 6/8, I was mostly guessing and the correct/wrong ratio never really went over 50%, so in these songs, the difference was either too small or it did not affect it to a desirable margin.
In the other two instrumentals, I fared a bit better - somewhere around 70% of success so there seemed to be a distinguishable difference, but I really had to strain my ears hard to hear it. A bit more air to it slightly better imaging, though the stage did not seem much wider... about 5%, probably.
With the vocals, the 8 - 9khz dropped seems to help by reducing slight sibilance from very little to less than very little... and the vocals did sound a bit more open... and with more instruments, they seemed to image a bit better and stretch a bit wider... The consistency was around 80% and the difference might have been a bit more obvious, say 10% with vocals and somewhere north of 5% with instruments.
It's worth mentioning that I chose 30 second segments of each track, which I thought would be desirable for this particular task.

I'll probably modify it next time to longer, like 60 seconds, segments and either with, without or half with/without to give a more reasonable chance to my ears to pick the differences. I'll do more controlled tests this week.

I'll be also doing the grill mod on the 560 and 400i tomorrow [mostly because it is a possibility] and compare it to without the grills and with the modded grills against the stock grills  on the pink-noise track, where the difference is biggest now... Then I'll be using both headphones with modded grills for a week and then switch back to stock.

So far the difference really is very small though and it is easily the least effective modification I've done so far.

I lol forward to reading your ore extensive testing, 90% accuracy for a mod is interesting. Do you mind listening the musical tracks, and equipment used for testing? Thanks for your efforts.

 

[conquerator2]

I lol forward to reading your ore extensive testing, 90% accuracy for a mod is interesting. Do you mind listening the musical tracks, and equipment used for testing? Thanks for your efforts.

The problem is that it was with pink-noise playing... As you saw with real music the difference dropped significantly and so did my accuracy.
The songs in question were:
 
Smile Venomously - Hidenori Shoji - Ryu Ga Gotoku 4 [Yakuza 4] original soundtrack - 250kbps mp3 [best available quality] - 1:10 - 1:45
EP 16 Score - Black and White - Jeff Williams & Alex Abram - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 2:40 - 3:05 
EP 13 Score - Forever Fall pt. 1 - Jeff Williams & Alex Abram - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 0:00 - 0:30
EP 8 Score - Players and Pieces - Jeff Williams & Alex Abram - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 5:15 - 5:50
EP 7 Score - The Emerald Forest pt. 2 - Jeff Williams & Alex Abram - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 1:10 - 1:35
EP 6 Score - The Emerald Forest pt. 1 - Jeff Williams & Alex Abram - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 1:00 - 1:20
EP 5 Score - The First Step pt. 2 - Jeff Williams & Alex Abram - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 0:15 - 0:40
EP 4 Score - The First Step pt. 1 - Jeff Williams & Alex Abram - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 2:25 - 2:55
Ep 1 Score - Ruby Rose - Jeff Williams & Alex Abram - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 1:40 - 2:10, 2:10 - 2:35 & 2:55 - 3:30
Time To Say Goodbye - Jeff Williams & Casey Lee Williams [vocals] - RWBY Volume 1 original soundtrack - 256kbps m4a [FLAC coming soon] - 0:00 - 0:50 & 1:05 - 1:40
Pink Noise - 705kbps wav 0:00 - 0:10 [loop]
 
I'll extend the length and amount after tomorrow, when the grill mod is done for both. Of course comparing the 400i & 560 in stock form, the difference is obvious. We'll see how they fare with a more open grill 

 
 
If I find the more open grills to perform better than stock and similarly to no grills [I'll test right away tomorrow w/ the most reliable source - pink-noise and possibly female vocals as the mod would open up treble the most - by hovering the stock/open grills over] then I'll say so. I have decided I will not be using the headphones with no grills regardless because a] the difference vs the stock grill is little [and should be practically none vs a more open grill] b] I am not willing to take the risk to use the headphone without any protection for a long time and c] the difference the more open grill [without fabric, later possibly with organza fabric] provides should be quite sufficient - sonically similar to no grills - with comparable performance and at least minimal protection.
 
EDIT: corrections and addendum

 

[Wildcatsare1]

I'll extend the length and amount after tomorrow, when the grill mod is done for both. Of course comparing the 400i & 560 in stock form, the difference is obvious. We'll see how they fare with a more open grill   

EDIT: corrections.
[/quote]

Conquistador thanks, look forward to the full on open grill report from beautiful Prague!!! ( home my second best Girlfriend ever (my Wife is the best, of course ) Katya)!

 

[conquerator2]

I'll extend the length and amount after tomorrow, when the grill mod is done for both. Of course comparing the 400i & 560 in stock form, the difference is obvious. We'll see how they fare with a more open grill 

 

EDIT: corrections.

Conquistador thanks, look forward to the full on open grill report from beautiful Prague!!! ( home my second best Girlfriend ever (my Wife is the best, of course ) Katya)![/quote]

That's certainly one way to call me --------------------------------------------------------------- I am from Brno, but that's rather close. We do have pretty girls here though
You're welcome 

 I also believe we've got lots in common - we both want to have the ultimate audio experience 

 and aside from age related differences, we've also been going through some rough stuff lately 

 
I'll make sure to report ASAP to please both my fellow head-fiers and team HiFiMAN 

 

[conquerator2]

I've also tried the 400i without the grills and compared it to the 560 with the grills to see whether the openness difference would be reduced. It is slightly, but they both gain about the same from the mod.
The slight resonance/bounce-backs are the same with the grills [vs. without] on both headphones as verified via pink-noise.
So while the 560 sounds already very with the grills and gains just a tiny bit of openness, so does the 400i, except it still sounds closed because that's how it sounds with the grills.
The gains would be a slight increase in treble energy, a slight increase in imaging accuracy and a slight increase in air.
But even when the 560 is handicapped with the grills and the 400i is not, they still sounds leagues apart in the timbre, realism and openness - as the benefit really is comparatively little and does nothing to change the core performance of a headphone, just nuances.
After the mod is done then, I'll compare again but the results won't change much, I'll just have more time to compare them in this closer-to-no-grills state [and run the sweeps].
 
The 400i slight air gain might be just a tiny bit more desirable overall, especially with treble-bound female vocals, but the quantity gain is about the same.
 
For openness/realism/timbre I used the 'Episode 13 Score - Forever Fall pt.1' track from RWBY. as it is just a recurring theme of piano and violin switching places/intensity coupled with other background instruments backing them up, along with a short choir part. I find the differences very easy to discern between the two headphones in this song and it serves as an ideal source for this specific task. It also sounds awesome
 
Other miscellaneous facts - the 560 seem to be using stronger magnets than the 400i - the 560 was far likely to pull the grills towards them than the 400i was by a lot. As soon as the grilles got anywhere close to the magnets they just stuck to them very tightly, while the 400i was much less likely to do this and stuck with less friction/
The 400i plastic retaining rings seem to fit tighter to the grilles than the 560 and they were harder to remove.
As for the retaining rings themselves, they seem actually pretty solid and while I might have chipped the paint a bit, they seem sturdy enough to withstand many removals 'touches wood' 
 
More tomorrow.

 

[conquerator2]

Another day and another bummer with the grill mod. Found a really nice piece of kit to work with... BUT the wires were braided so you trim one and the other part shatters/// We'll see whether superglue will help here but I am not so sure.
I'll finally hopefully manage to make some tomorrow...
I might end up buying a cheap cooling fan or two and scrutinizing those for parts as the meshes on those seem pretty open and consistent... So far had no luck with garbage bins and pen trays - too dense a mesh.