[TheGame21x]

I've never gotten an Ety because I don't particularly like deep insertion and I really don't like triple flange tips. I've entertained getting an HF3 or something like that refurbed from Amazon (particularly because of Rin's analysis showing how close to the ER4P they are) but I've yet to convince my ears to put up with that level of violation.
 
And because I hear Etys can be sterile and sound rather bass anemic. Both of those are no-nos for me.

 
(And yes, I'm fully aware that the above two assumptions may be totally and completely false. Please don't murder me.)

 

[eke2k6]

Quote:

I've never gotten an Ety because I don't particularly like deep insertion and I really don't like triple flange tips. I've entertained getting an HF3 or something like that refurbed from Amazon (particularly because of Rin's analysis showing how close to the ER4P they are) but I've yet to convince my ears to put up with that level of violation.
 
And because I hear Etys can be sterile and sound rather bass anemic. Both of those are no-nos for me.

 
(And yes, I'm fully aware that the above two assumptions may be totally and completely false. Please don't murder me.)

 
1. They aren't bass anemic. I finally achieved the proper fit yesterday, and it blew my mind.
 
2. The proper fit feels like trying to force an elephant through an apartment door.
 
3. They do sound pretty sterile, despite having adequate bass. I think that's from the sheer dryness of the presentation. It's like knowing a fully cooked steak is the proper way to do it, but the medium well/medium rare is so much tastier.

 

[lwien]

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Glad to see the tip selection has been improved. Main flaw fixed!

If there are HiFiMAN guys reading this: any chance the new tips and case could be ordered separately? For a fee of course.

 
Yeah, I second this.    I got the RE-400's with the original tip selection and none of them worked for me.    They were either too small or too big.

 

[TheGame21x]

Quote:

 
1. They aren't bass anemic. I finally achieved the proper fit yesterday, and it blew my mind.
 
2. The proper fit feels like trying to force an elephant through an apartment door.
 
3. They do sound pretty sterile, despite having adequate bass. I think that's from the sheer dryness of the presentation. It's like knowing a fully cooked steak is the proper way to do it, but the medium well/medium rare is so much tastier.

 
1. Sweet.
 
2. That's what I'm afraid of.
 
3. Good analogy.
 
I may someday get a pair of Etys, just to be able to say I've heard them at the least.

 

[kyuuketsuki]

Quote:

 
1. They aren't bass anemic. I finally achieved the proper fit yesterday, and it blew my mind.
 
2. The proper fit feels like trying to force an elephant through an apartment door.
 
3. They do sound pretty sterile, despite having adequate bass. I think that's from the sheer dryness of the presentation. It's like knowing a fully cooked steak is the proper way to do it, but the medium well/medium rare is so much tastier.

 
1. Agreed, they have plenty of bass, but they do lack subbass impact and a certain energy that makes bass feel real. But that is just me.
 
2. I actually prefer them with their foam tips, which seems to get me a good seal almost constantly. The silicone tips... er... yeah... nice analogy...
 
3. Pretty much... yeah. Also soundstage has 0 height and only adequate width. But the depth is quite nice. 

 

[Muzeick]

There are no tips that work properly with the re-400. In my extensive scientific opinion, of course.

 

[gnarlsagan]

I wonder if the same thing will happen to the re600 that happened to the re0.

 

[TheGame21x]

Quote:

There are no tips that work properly with the re-400. In my extensive scientific opinion, of course.

 
I dunno, Ultimate Ears single flange tips work for me.

 

[Origin89]

Quote:

 
1. They aren't bass anemic. I finally achieved the proper fit yesterday, and it blew my mind.
 
2. The proper fit feels like trying to force an elephant through an apartment door.
 
3. They do sound pretty sterile, despite having adequate bass. I think that's from the sheer dryness of the presentation. It's like knowing a fully cooked steak is the proper way to do it, but the medium well/medium rare is so much tastier.

 
1. Yea, bass is present in quality and quantity.
2. Fit is easy and quick for me.
3. Not sterile for me. On the warmer side of neutral... and fully cooking a steak is not the proper way, by the way. Any chef worth his salt will tell you medium-rare is a proper cooked steak.

 

[kyuuketsuki]

Quote:

 
1. Yea, bass is present in quality and quantity.
2. Fit is easy and quick for me.
3. Not sterile for me. On the warmer side of neutral... and fully cooking a steak is not the proper way, by the way. Any chef worth his salt will tell you medium-rare is a proper cooked steak.

 
You sure you're talking about Ety??? RE-400 I'd describe as on the warmer side of neutral... Etys on the other hand I'd describe on the brighter side of neutral. They still have a good amount of bass, but they definitely have more treble. But I still think they lack subbass impact, and I still say Ety lacks a certain energy in the bass...

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

 
You sure you're talking about Ety??? RE-400 I'd describe as on the warmer side of neutral... Etys on the other hand I'd describe on the brighter side of neutral. They still have a good amount of bass, but they definitely have more treble. But I still think they lack subbass impact, and I still say Ety lacks a certain energy in the bass...

 
Etymotic is technically on the warmer side of neutral due to the way Etymotic clipped off some of the upper highs (as they stated that recorded music has a 5 dB bump in that region).  The ER4B is just about DF compensated perfectly and is a little bright for music, but truly neutral.  Then we go to the question, how far can we diverge from the neutral line before we can't call it neutral anymore?  IMO, the Etymotic (HF5) doesn't diverge far enough for me to say it's not neutral, but the RE-400 does (slightly). 
 
Then we also question the human perception of sound.  What the charts and graphs don't tell you is how a person will perceive the sound.  It tells you how far from flat (or other preferred curve, OW for example) a headphone is.  What we still don't understand is what happens as you stray from flat.  If you look through Dr. Olive's blog you'll find a chart with various measured headphones and the way they are perceived to sound.  The results in that chart look random.  It's unlocking the pattern in research like that (statistically or mathematically) that can actually help us create a proper compensation curve.  I guarantee you, based on the chart Dr. Olive provided, it isn't linear (the way we compensate right now is linear). With that said, there is a lot more we need to learn about how we perceive sound and what will be perceived as neutral (and what won't).

 

[kyuuketsuki]

Quote:

 
Etymotic is technically on the warmer side of neutral due to the way Etymotic clipped off some of the upper highs (as they stated that recorded music has a 5 dB bump in that region).  The ER4B is just about DF compensated perfectly and is a little bright for music, but truly neutral.  Then we go to the question, how far can we diverge from the neutral line before we can't call it neutral anymore?  IMO, the Etymotic (HF5) doesn't diverge far enough for me to say it's not neutral, but the RE-400 does (slightly).
 
Then we also question the human perception of sound.  What the charts and graphs don't tell you is how a person will perceive the sound.  It tells you how far from flat (or other preferred curve, OW for example) a headphone is.  What we still don't understand is what happens as you stray from flat.  If you look through Dr. Olive's blog you'll find a chart with various measured headphones and the way they are perceived to sound.  The results in that chart look random.  It's unlocking the pattern in research like that (statistically or mathematically) that can actually help us create a proper compensation curve.  I guarantee you, based on the chart Dr. Olive provided, it isn't linear (the way we compensate right now is linear). With that said, there is a lot more we need to learn about how we perceive sound and what will be perceived as neutral (and what won't).

 
Fair enough.
 
And yeah... I'm very interested in the human perception of sound. I believe we discussed this before, I think.... Or it might have been someone else. I can't remember. Regardless, perfectly flat usually sounds terrible because of what is perceived as neutral by human hearing. 

 

[tinyman392]

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Fair enough.
 
And yeah... I'm very interested in the human perception of sound. I believe we discussed this before, I think.... Or it might have been someone else. I can't remember. Regardless, perfectly flat usually sounds terrible because of what is perceived as neutral by human hearing. 

 
I meant in reference to a perfectly flat pair of speakers...  An Etymotic isn't perfectly flat, it has a huge spike in the 3kHz region (nearly 12-15 dB) to compensate for resonances.  That's what makes it perceived as flat. Science has been able to figure out what flat is (or at least one form of it), but has trouble once we diverge from flat (as shown by the graphs Dr. Olive provided). 

 

[kyuuketsuki]

Quote:

 
I meant in reference to a perfectly flat pair of speakers...  An Etymotic isn't perfectly flat, it has a huge spike in the 3kHz region (nearly 12-15 dB) to compensate for resonances.  That's what makes it perceived as flat. Science has been able to figure out what flat is (or at least one form of it), but has trouble once we diverge from flat (as shown by the graphs Dr. Olive provided). 

 
I know the difference between neutral [perceived flat] and completely flat. And yeah, that makes sense. I know that Ety isn't completely flat. I don't think I've ever heard a completely flat headphone, and apparently, unlike speakers, perfectly flat headphones sound pretty terrible. But this is all hearsay. 

 

[cstory]

I finally got some tips that work with my RE-400's. I ordered the Comply 400 Tsx in large, and they are just barely large enough to fill my ear canal, but they do allow me to get enough of a seal that I can finally hear the RE-400's sound as they should (I think). BTW, my box did not have the large double flanges included. In fact there were only two tips. Two pair of medium biflanges (maybe they were small) and then the one pair with the weird rod passing across the inside of it. Anyway, glad to hear that they may be increasing their tip selection because none of the ones I received were even close to doing it for me. I must say that I do like the sound of these. It's come up before, but balanced is how I would describe them. Not too much bass, not too much treble, but nicely balanced. I think they give up a bit of inner detail compared to my old Etymotic ER-6's, especially in the treble, but the overall presentation of the music is better and more even. My target earphone sound is what I hear from my Selah Granduer speakers which use a Scanspeak Revelator woofer and a Raal Ribbon tweeter. Great bass and smooth detailed grainless treble. The RE-400's need a bit more bass and detail to measure up to that standard. If I were on the RE-600 design team, those would be my areas of focus. However I do like RE-400's. They are a great value and very satisfying to listen to.