[hifimanrookie]

I appreciate your approach... But I know exactly what I want I do not want to be blown away by my phones or so... I want them to perform like I hear the music in a real world. My ears are flawed when listening to the sounds of reality (they are not perceiving neutrally) but if I get a neutral setup, I am going to hear my music in the same way. It's not perfect perfect neutrality (this does not exist) but it's perfect neutrality to my ears as I hear it from my cans like I hear it in reality.

Then i think u need cans like the akg k702..good cans! as i understand they are the utmost what u can get in neutrality..and transparancy..and detail...never listened to them though..but what i heared from friends is that they are as neutral as u can get..but no bass.

.ps..i do understand u..i have a friend who is a senior engineer in electronics at philips..and he says same things how u explain it..and he is my best friend..and i never wanna change his opinions never..no matter if his opinion is based on physical thingies or taste..
Try the akg's maybe u will be surprised...am going to bed..u guys have fun..dont forget..we are all here as mates..we all want the same at the end..listening to music in the best way WE THINK and feel can be..its 4:22 am..am going to bed..enjoy ur night/day/morning/afternoon!

 

[MHOE]

Quote:

You can't find mistakes in your opinion from other people. (only me)
 
If you listen to my opinion which faults yours, then you'll learn something new and change your ways. You can keep your views,
but transform it into my opinion. Then you'd be right. And everyone who disagrees with you would be wrong. 
 
But I understand. You want to continue being wrong, until you agree with my opinion. Then everyone else will be wrong.
 
I digress.
 
 

 
Of course I can find out my mistakes... But the other people needs to support their arguments adequately. Or they just "have to" wait and see if I am going to change my mind with gaining more and more experience.
 
But so far, every single pair of headphone I have got near-to-neutral FR started to sound the most natural, the most accurate, the most versatile, the most desirable. Also, coloured or distorted amps haven't pleased me. Maybe my electric guitars appreciates distortion in their sound to be enough metal but that's a completely different story...

 

[Zoom25]

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Come on..i tried to stay out of ur discussion..but..u really mean u prefer a phone that have perfect graphs that sound off in ur ears then the one who really sings in ur ears?
I checked a post of mine in which i said ur emotion, brain and ears count the most to choose ur phone..and u replied u agreed..what changed since that confirmation...oops..am sorry..didnt want to get into this duscussion..as i said..everyone is different..and i understand where ur coming from..like in my country certain exotics are not found in national shops..so its almost impossible to listen to them..in that case..the only thing u can count is reading about them..in graphs, reviews and so on..so in that case i agree with u..
And again..i respect any opinion..as we are here to discuss matters as friends..audio loving friends..or better yet MUSIC LOVERS PUR SANG. Agree?

 
Good Guy HifimanRookie
Quote:

 
I do not find my ears more accurate than measurements in order to achieve what I want. And I do not find my ears to be a better source to anyone in comparison with measurements.

 
MHOE, I think you are looking at the wrong components in your argument. I prefer to take a scientific approach as well, but what you are focusing on in this ear vs measurement in a wrong way. Measurements should be used to tell about inherent flaws or certain performance parameter that must be met. Measurements and tests should also be used when biases are involved, in which something like a brand name or you being primed from reading an article can affect the way you think about the performance - in that case definitely use stuff like blind, double-blind and ABX to try to separate those biases.
 
Although as far as how accurate your ears are...they are actually very, very reliable receptors. They pick up the 3 components: frequency, amplitude and time and analyse the information to a extremely high fidelity. As the sound gets converted from mechanical to chemical and neurological (outer ear -> middle ear -> inner ear --> Central Auditory Nervous System), your ears do this conversion with a very high "accuracy." This process is way too complex to be put into measurements, especially those shown in on a standard audiophile site (yes this includes our beloved Innerfidelity). In this case, you need to hear the phones yourself or rely on another person who shares a similar reference point like you and have been in accord quite a few times <- this would serve far better in getting a representation of the music then any of the graphs presented on any website. None of those graphs and measurements show how your ear/brain is going to encode that. These measurements are actually quite limited in contributing to how something will sound. Now please don't read this as: Measurements are useless. Also, please note that each person have different hearing acuity, so that further complicates thing. Regardless, even for an average listener, these measurements are still unable to give a true representation and your ears are far more reliable in interpreting the sound in comparison to measurements. 

 

[Zoom25]

Quote:

 It's my opinion, don't conform to it. 

lol Para be trolling.

 

[MHOE]

Quote:

 
Good Guy HifimanRookie
 
MHOE, I think you are looking at the wrong components in your argument. I prefer to take a scientific approach as well, but what you are focusing on in this ear vs measurement in a wrong way. Measurements should be used to tell about inherent flaws or certain performance parameter that must be met. Measurements and tests should also be used when biases are involved, in which something like a brand name or you being primed from reading an article can affect the way you think about the performance - in that case definitely use stuff like blind, double-blind and ABX to try to separate those biases.
 
Although as far as how accurate your ears are...they are actually very, very reliable receptors. They pick up the 3 components: frequency, amplitude and time and analyse the information to a extremely high fidelity. As the sound gets converted from mechanical to chemical and neurological (outer ear -> middle ear -> inner ear --> Central Auditory Nervous System), your ears do this conversion with a very high "accuracy." This process is way too complex to be put into measurements, especially those shown in on a standard audiophile site (yes this includes our beloved Innerfidelity). In this case, you need to hear the phones yourself or rely on another person who shares a similar reference point like you and have been in accord quite a few times <- this would serve far better in getting a representation of the music then any of the graphs presented on any website. None of those graphs and measurements show how your ear/brain is going to encode that. These measurements are actually quite limited in contributing to how something will sound. Now please don't read this as: Measurements are useless. Also, please note that each person have different hearing acuity, so that further complicates thing. Regardless, even for an average listener, these measurements are still unable to give a true representation and your ears are far more reliable in interpreting the sound in comparison to measurements. 

 
Interesting to read... However, my ears receives and process the sound in the same way when listening to headphones or to real world sounds. It's not completely the same but you can get very close with a plugin called TB Isone if you know how to use it and have a neutral sounding setup to not screw up its approach. It works pretty well for me.
 
I have no opportunity to spend years on assessing every single pair of headphones in order to get the most natural one... I do not believe a short-period listen could let me decide more precisely in terms of neutrality. Actually, this would be only possible if I have a true ideal reference setup with me, including both software and hardware part of my audio chain (including reference pair of headphones to compare). Still, I would have to spend a massive amount of time in a headphone shop of massive amount of phones. This is not possible in the Czech republic.
 
I am not saying that I am getting for 100% a life-like performance right now but it is excellent enough for the money I am willing to spend on it. And I am able to achieve outstanding results even with cheaper phones than LCD-2 if I get them close-to-neutral FR carefully.

 

[Zoom25]

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It is very possible to assess overall tonality and accuracy from the measurements (at least from innerfidelity), you just have to gain some experience and read up a bit... Of course, it is difficult to decide what to choose exactly if you do not not exactly what you want, if you are just seeking for sound that is going to blow you away or something like that.

 
I actually know how hearing works...I know what and how information in sound is perceived. Not to mention people always forget just how their sensitivity range varies with frequencies. The mids, especially - looking at about 500 - 4000 Hz...our ears are far more sensitive then what those graphs are able to communicate. At this point I honestly think you just read up on some things and feel you are a guru. If you ask Tyll himself from Innerfidelity himself, I bet even he won't say what you said, despite him being an expert in this field. Why? cause he's not ignorant of all the other important things involved besides measurement.

 

[MHOE]

Quote:

 
I actually know how hearing works...I know what and how information in sound is perceived. Not to mention people always forget just how their sensitivity range varies with frequencies. The mids, especially - looking at about 500 - 4000 Hz...our ears are far more sensitive then what those graphs are able to communicate. At this point I honestly think you just read up on some things and feel you are a guru. If you ask Tyll himself from Innerfidelity himself, I bet even he won't say what you said, despite him being an expert in this field. Why? cause he's not ignorant of all the other important things involved besides measurement.

 
My ears are not neutrally perceiving the real life sounds for sure... but we are not talking about this. I know I do not hear neutrally. I only want my headphones to sound close-to-neutral, that's all. And no, I don't fell like a guru... Can you please stay on the topic?

 

[Zoom25]

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The problem is you simply don't understand what I wanted to say... My opinion is clear and the same for a quite a long time by now. I am seeking for neutrality, I want to hear from headphones what I hear in reality and only neutral FR along with great technical aspects can satisfy me.
 
However, all the people here are searching for something different and that's where we see things differently... I have no problem with it. I wish every single headfier can get their dreamed pair of headphones as soon as possible!

 
There are so many headphones that are intented to be flat or monitor like - and all of them have FRs between + or - 3dB cutoff point throughout 20-20kHz range and despite looking similar, they can sound very different. First off, its impossible to get a ruler flat sound produced by a driver. If you can find one, I'll shut up. This is more important for amplifiers.

 

[MHOE]

Quote:

 
There are so many headphones that are intented to be flat or monitor like - and all of them have FRs between + or - 3dB cutoff point throughout 20-20kHz range and despite looking similar, they can sound very different. First off, its impossible to get a ruler flat sound produced by a driver. If you can find one, I'll shut up. This is more important for amplifiers.

 
I am not looking for ruler flat FR graph... I have Audeze LCD-2 rev2 with FR measurement to know how to correct them by EQ along with innerfidelity's measurement to know how to properly drive them. It's not perfect but I do not know of better affordable way how to get where I want to be.

 

[paradoxper]

Quote:

lol Para be trolling.

I don't understand your Scandinavian talk, sorry. 

 
I did my best to break up this Sound Science discussion. In which, I FAILED miserably.

 

[Zoom25]

Quote:

 
Interesting to read... However, my ears receives and process the sound in the same way when listening to headphones or to real world sounds. It's not completely the same but you can get very close with a plugin called TB Isone if you know how to use it and have a neutral sounding setup to not screw up its approach. It works pretty well for me.
 
I have no opportunity to spend years on assessing every single pair of headphones in order to get the most natural one... I do not believe a short-period listen could let me decide more precisely in terms of neutrality. Actually, this would be only possible if I have a true ideal reference setup with me, including both software and hardware part of my audio chain (including reference pair of headphones to compare). Still, I would have to spend a massive amount of time in a headphone shop of massive amount of phones. This is not possible in the Czech republic.
 
I am not saying that I am getting for 100% a life-like performance right now but it is excellent enough for the money I am willing to spend on it. And I am able to achieve outstanding results even with cheaper phones than LCD-2 if I get them close-to-neutral FR carefully.

 
Not true, the way that energy hits your ear naturally (at the pinna) and propagates through the ear canal is different from a headphone (especially if you mean over ear, supra aural, in ear)... but even with over ear, it's not the same way. 

 

[DTrewwye]

Unsubbed, WHY do most people just want to devolve into this freaking sound science debate AGAIN AND AGAIN.

 

[MHOE]

Quote:

 
Not true, the way that energy hits your ear naturally (at the pinna) and propagates through the ear canal is different from a headphone (especially if you mean over ear, supra aural, in ear)... but even with over ear, it's not the same way. 

 
That's why I use TB Isone, corrected to my ears and head.

 

[ultrabike]

Quote:

Unsubbed, WHY do most people just want to devolve into this freaking sound science debate AGAIN AND AGAIN.

 
Agreed, this thread might be helpful to people who want to discuss headphone sound perception and measurements: http://www.head-fi.org/t/632286/aes-2012-paper-relationship-between-perception-and-measurement-of-headphone-sound-quality#post_8789287

 

[Zoom25]

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That's why I use TB Isone, corrected to my ears and head.

 
It's essentially based on the average listener so you don't necessarily fit it naturally. Also the natural crossfeed system in your auditory system will most probably not fit the TB isone.
 
 
 
BOTTOM LINE of what I meant all along was that all these measurements and tests are great in giving you a general picture, however, that picture is still far off from what is actually happening and what you are perceiving. These tests and measurements with today's technology cannot provide a substitute for your ears. They are simply not advanced enough, so for now one must rely on ears ultimately.
 
Alright guys, I'm off to bed. MHOE, please understand I wasn't trying to get on your case or be a jerk. I was just trying to help. If I came off as a jerk, I apologize for that.

 
Happy listenings.