[Mad Lust Envy]

The Denon graphs can't be trusted. The D7000 shows a steep roll off, and no one can ever say the D7000 isn't sub bass first. If you want a more accurate presentation of its bass, look at the TH900 graphs (which is ironically less sub bass heavy, yet show a muxh more prominent sub bass on the graphs).

 

[electropop]

  Wait what...you're really overblowing things here. I tested my HE560 thoroughly and objectively and found that something small can be tweaked to improve sub-bass extension, relayed it to Fang who thought it'd be good to incorporate into the production run. You have not nearly enough facts to say these claims and are just making assumptions everywhere.
 

1. Sub-bass (<50 Hz) IS important in some music genres, namely synthetic music, ambient music, and bassy instrumental music. If you deny that then you're just spewing lies.

 

1. The new earpad implementation has a strong basis on certain tweaks and focuses in my Jergpad mod; other things have also been discussed ad infinitum by people (moving the cable outlet on the cup forward 15 degrees, more comfortable headband). Fang sees value in iteration as well as taking in suggestions from the community, so him considering improving the new baffles is not out of bounds at all.

 

1. The midrange resonance issue with the old vs new baffles has nothing to do with the bass conduction. The old baffles were wider and obscured more of the driver, hence that. The bass suggestion is about coupling between the baffle and the driver which is entirely unrelated on a design perspective.

 

1. For the demo unit sent out, so far I'm the only one analyzing the sound characteristics on a trait-to-trait basis; that is not a SQ analysis style taken on by everyone (in fact, very few do it this way), I just like to do it. And that so happens to expose more technical information about sound characteristics than "holistic" listening impressions (which is what most reviews tend to be).

 
So are you shut down enough yet? Or do I need to embarass you further? 

 

 
You are right I might've lost my reading comprehension regards to the different baffle designs and bass conduction. Got mixed up and didn't bother to go back enough to properly quote. But speaking personally, I'd leave the conduction behind. Have you listened to music that doesn't extend below 50Hz with and without the mod and made the conclusion? If it goes without saying that you have, I don't have anything against it. <50Hz is still overrated though, but I don't listen to much electronic music anyhow (and I would still be happy without the extreme extension) At most you get an atonal ambient rumble you don't even feel with headphones... No pitches of notes to distinguish = no musical value. Heh, I did not mean that as a condescending remark on people's musical tastes, though it may seem like it. 
 
I appreciate the detailed and "non holistic" approach. It's just a shame that there is no context at all to how you've come to these conclusions (now talking about stuff unrelated to FR). In other words, what music were you actually listening to when coming to this and this conclusion etc. 
Saying "bass is quick" or "handles quick passages well" is pretty holistic in my opinion, without the context of the recordings. Put some well recorder stuff through any reproduction setup, even fast tempo music, and it'll sound "good", generally put.  
 
This is just me nitpicking though and find the lack of "real" context a problem with almost every review. I might just be naive though. I appreciate your approach as I said. What lead me to my irrational rant though, was that you said it already as stock extended beyond the level of a HE400, which to me already go as low as a headphone with ANY of my music can go. How does one go and improve that? I see great measurements of the HE400 extending very deep as well. As logical as we seek to be, this hobby just reeks of disproportional statements. 
 
One more thing I'd like to add, is that of course it's in Fang's interest to listen to the public. But people jumping on the "NO DEEP BASS, THIS HEADPHONE IS FLAWED" -wagon is just too soon. I'd rather have a new product as it is and go improve on that based on a general opinion (preferably logical ones as yours) and then have it fixed as opposed to just listening to just one, no offense. I'm just extremely hesitant about this mod not having ANY acoustical effects on reproduction instead of the boost in sub bass (off course without any added distortion in any HD order figures).
 
Who's here to embarrass people? C'mon, this ain't a competition. Who am I to say as someone who hasn't really contributed anything substantial to this movement in headphones. You have more power and I acknowledge that.  

 

[electropop]

  " are you shut down enough yet? Or do I need to embarass you further? 

"
This tone doesn't really seem necessary  we are talking about a hobby here, headphones and music

 
Except people here don't really talk about music... Good point otherwise

 

[jerg]

   
You are right I might've lost my reading comprehension regards to the different baffle designs and bass conduction. Got mixed up and didn't bother to go back enough to properly quote. But speaking personally, I'd leave the conduction behind. Have you listened to music that doesn't extend below 50Hz with and without the mod and made the conclusion? If it goes without saying that you have, I don't have anything against it. <50Hz is still overrated though, but I don't listen to much electronic music anyhow (and I would still be happy without the extreme extension) At most you get an atonal ambient rumble you don't even feel with headphones... No pitches of notes to distinguish = no musical value. Heh, I did not mean that as a condescending remark on people's musical tastes, though it may seem like it. 
 
I appreciate the detailed and "non holistic" approach. It's just a shame that there is no context at all to how you've come to these conclusions (now talking about stuff unrelated to FR). In other words, what music were you actually listening to when coming to this and this conclusion etc. 
Saying "bass is quick" or "handles quick passages well" is pretty holistic in my opinion, without the context of the recordings. Put some well recorder stuff through any reproduction setup, even fast tempo music, and it'll sound "good", generally put.  
 
This is just me nitpicking though and find the lack of "real" context a problem with almost every review. I might just be naive though. I appreciate your approach as I said. What lead me to my irrational rant though, was that you said it already as stock extended beyond the level of a HE400, which to me already go as low as a headphone with ANY of my music can go. How does one go and improve that? I see great measurements of the HE400 extending very deep as well. As logical as we seek to be, this hobby just reeks of disproportional statements. 
 
One more thing I'd like to add, is that of course it's in Fang's interest to listen to the public. But people jumping on the "NO DEEP BASS, THIS HEADPHONE IS FLAWED" -wagon is just too soon. I'd rather have a new product as it is and go improve on that based on a general opinion (preferably logical ones as yours) and then have it fixed as opposed to just listening to just one, no offense. I'm just extremely hesitant about this mod not having ANY acoustical effects on reproduction instead of the boost in sub bass (off course without any added distortion in any HD order figures).
 
Who's here to embarrass people? C'mon, this ain't a competition. Who am I to say as someone who hasn't really contributed anything substantial to this movement in headphones. You have more power and I acknowledge that.  

I can't help preventing some folks here from kneejerk reactions and hyperbolic interpretations of anything slightly negative (or even neutral / questionable) I said. 
 
As for what I use to gauge things, my ears of course, plus a combination of trait-relevant music and tools (binaural recordings for gauging imaging/soundstage, bassy music for gauging bass, a combination of mids-centric instrumental and vocal music for gauging midrange, and literally everything to gauge treble, transients, etc. Sinewave generator program to gauge extension, presence/absence of ringing, and frequency response behaviour).
 
It's already a massive writeup to describe what I documented, it would be double/triple that if I have to reference every piece of music/tool used to reach every tiny conclusion.
 
Anyway it rubs me the wrong way how you reached all those fallacious and almost accusatory conclusions in your earlier post, all from mostly half-baked perceptions.

 

[ThurstonX]

In the end isn't this sub-bass/baffle mod kerfuffle moot?  It's Fang's company, his creation (in essence), and if he chooses to solicit input, evaluate it (as I think we must assume he is doing, and not acting blindly), and ultimately act on it or not, in the end it's his decision.  To kvetch about his process just seems a little petty.  But then here we are on the Net, so, have at it.

 

[tigon_ridge]

One more thing I'd like to add, is that of course it's in Fang's interest to listen to the public. But people jumping on the "NO DEEP BASS, THIS HEADPHONE IS FLAWED" -wagon is just too soon. I'd rather have a new product as it is and go improve on that based on a general opinion (preferably logical ones as yours) and then have it fixed as opposed to just listening to just one, no offense. I'm just extremely hesitant about this mod not having ANY acoustical effects on reproduction instead of the boost in sub bass (off course without any added distortion in any HD order figures).  
Who's here to embarrass people? C'mon, this ain't a competition. Who am I to say as someone who hasn't really contributed anything substantial to this movement in headphones. You have more power and I acknowledge that.  

You still don't get it... your post came off as obnoxious and assumptive of Dr. Fang's intent; and no one had ever mentioned being unsure of these headphones for the sub-bass aspect alone, that's just your own misinterpretation.
 
"I'd rather have a new product as it is and go improve on that based on a general opinion (preferably logical ones as yours) and then have it fixed as opposed to just listening to just one, no offense. I'm just extremely hesitant about this mod not having ANY acoustical effects on reproduction instead of the boost in sub bass (off course without any added distortion in any HD order figures)."
 
Dr. Fang has ears of his own. He can determine for himself if Jerg's concern and fix are legitimate, and there is no harm to acting accordingly. It only serves all of us that sub-bass does get improved. And of course if this mod affects other aspects of sound, other than sub-bass, it will be noted by the testers and acted upon accordingly. Did you really think they would really overlook such a thing?

 

[tigon_ridge]

The Denon graphs can't be trusted. The D7000 shows a steep roll off, and no one can ever say the D7000 isn't sub bass first. If you want a more accurate presentation of its bass, look at the TH900 graphs (which is ironically less sub bass heavy, yet show a muxh more prominent sub bass on the graphs).

I wonder if it could be the case of a difference in conduction, or sizes of diaphragm.

 

[davidsh]

Many in this thread suddenly seems pretty darn defensive. I HATE when people start saying 'you' going for the person and not the issues we are discussing, makes for bad feelings and people getting hurt when it mostly isn't necessary.

 

[kernel8888]

It's pretty crazy how much talk and attention this baffle mod is getting. If the he-560 is really in between the he-400 and he-500 as far as extension, and this mod only get's it a little closer to the he-500 (maybe it get's the he-560 extended as low), were talking MAYBE 5db lower. And that's in the 20-30 hz range, where rolloff is already starging at 30-35 hz. That means that this baffle "improvement" would be hardly noticable, and ONLY if you were listening for it. If you were just listening to music without listening for the lower extension, you wouldn't hear the difference anyway.

I've heard the he-400 and he-500 side by side extensively for over two months, and i can only detect the difference in rolloff and extension when you run a sweep and specifically note the rolloff. When listening to movies and electronic music with >30 tones, you cant even tell the difference in extension unless you REALLY listen.

That being said, i would recommend moving this thread away from this baffle mod. It's effects are going to be hardly noticable based on how the effects are described, which are >5 db lower extension. Lets actually talk about the he-560 and how it sounds! more comparisons between the he-500 and other phones! More specifics on comfort, build, ANYTHING BUT THIS MOD!! that would be more helpful.

 

[tigon_ridge]

How about you guys just let people talk about what they want, instead of trying to dictate the discussion with such negative attitudes. If people want to talk about other aspects of these headphones, great. If they want more updates on the baffle improvement, great. Some discussion is better than no discussion. Some improvement is better than none.

 

[Nimzerz]

  How about you guys just let people talk about what they want, instead of trying to dictate the discussion with such negative attitudes. If people want to talk about other aspects of these headphones, great. If they want more updates on the baffle improvement, great. Some discussion is better than no discussion. Some improvement is better than none.

+100000
Honestly, if we are talking about it, it means it matters to people.

 

[kernel8888]

Only suggested it because it has been well established and documented what the effects of the mod are, and the only talk coming from the mod seems to be negative at thise point. Just suggesting (and inquiring about) other aspects of the sound and the headphone itself. Not trying to add to the contention though, just trying to help move the thread along...

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

The headphone isnt even out yet, yet a minor gripe has been completely blown out of proportion.

Something out of nothing, I'm betting.

 

[jerg]

The headphone isnt even out yet, yet a minor gripe has been completely blown out of proportion.

Something out of nothing, I'm betting.

Knees weak, mom's spaghetti.

 

[Nimzerz]

  Knees weak, mom's spaghetti.

Was I supposed to find that somewhat an Eminem reference?