[grizzlybeast]

^ sub bass no musical value????well if most like music and ask about sub bass then the value has been subjectively declared by the listeners here that it is important to them. In that case highs have no musical value or studios don't need seperate subs.

But whatever.

 

[conquerator2]

Kudos to Jerg for all his contributions in this hobby in general, but Fang has potentially just lost a customer. 

I personally simply cannot go and purchase something based on all of this mess. I'm mainly pointing at people obsessed with sub-bass (as Jerg himself has admitted being), as I always like to do... I just don't get how anyone can be so focused on something that has simply no musical value over any genre. 

How is it that one guy has so much power? A few people have heard the 560. All of them raving over the performance. Superlatives on almost every font; the usual head-fi yadayada. One of the listeners says he's able to "fix" the headphones and the complete production is altered. Didn't Fang state there were some mid-range resonance issues with this baffle "fix" that they'd already tried, or have I missed something? No faith in your own creation? 

Ridiculous! :rolleyes:  

As some genius (absolutely no sarcasm here) already pointed out: "We already have the LCD-line"

You're confusing the double baffle approach, which reportedly had the midrange resonance issues. The single baffle fix (which really is just a minor change to the one that's in the 560... Not even change you just make it more conductive and tighter on the driver) is what we're discussing.
It according to Jerg only affects sub-bass nothing more, nothing less

From a pure music perspective sub-bass is not important to me but as someone who also wants to use this headphone for gaming and movies it does hold some now...

Lastly, Fang will only change things if he finds them beneficial. He'll test it first obviously.

But if it really only improves sub-bass reproduction and nothing else, why not... We obviously wouldn't want that if it messed up anything...

 

[Zoom25]

I personally haven't found a headphone that can really show off how the sub bass is supposed to translate to in real life. The closest thing was a Denon that could emulate a subwoofer. HE-500, LCD-2 and LCD-3 all failed at this despite them going very low. It simply doesn't have that push and pull kind off feel that you get with a sub. You're supposed to feel the sub bass which adds to the experience. Besides the Denon or Fostex, none of them can come close to emulating it. 

 

[cute]

  Kudos to Jerg for all his contributions in this hobby in general, but Fang has potentially just lost a customer. 
 
I personally simply cannot go and purchase something based on all of this mess. I'm mainly pointing at people obsessed with sub-bass (as Jerg himself has admitted being), as I always like to do... I just don't get how anyone can be so focused on something that has simply no musical value over any genre. 
 
How is it that one guy has so much power? A few people have heard the 560. All of them raving over the performance. Superlatives on almost every font; the usual head-fi yadayada. One of the listeners says he's able to "fix" the headphones and the complete production is altered. Didn't Fang state there were some mid-range resonance issues with this baffle "fix" that they'd already tried, or have I missed something? No faith in your own creation? 
 
Ridiculous! 

 
 
As some genius (absolutely no sarcasm here) already pointed out: "We already have the LCD-line"

 
Make that two customers lost because of the jerg sub-bass fiasco.  With the Oppo PM-1 soon out, I returned my HE-4, and will not pursue Hifiman any longer!

 

[grizzlybeast]

Edit...Never mind I better check the context.

 

[jerg]

  Kudos to Jerg for all his contributions in this hobby in general, but Fang has potentially just lost a customer. 
 
I personally simply cannot go and purchase something based on all of this mess. I'm mainly pointing at people obsessed with sub-bass (as Jerg himself has admitted being), as I always like to do... I just don't get how anyone can be so focused on something that has simply no musical value over any genre. 
 
How is it that one guy has so much power? A few people have heard the 560. All of them raving over the performance. Superlatives on almost every font; the usual head-fi yadayada. One of the listeners says he's able to "fix" the headphones and the complete production is altered. Didn't Fang state there were some mid-range resonance issues with this baffle "fix" that they'd already tried, or have I missed something? No faith in your own creation? 
 
Ridiculous! 

 
 
As some genius (absolutely no sarcasm here) already pointed out: "We already have the LCD-line"

Wait what...you're really overblowing things here. I tested my HE560 thoroughly and objectively and found that something small can be tweaked to improve sub-bass extension, relayed it to Fang who thought it'd be good to incorporate into the production run. You have not nearly enough facts to say these claims and are just making assumptions everywhere.
 

1. Sub-bass (<50 Hz) IS important in some music genres, namely synthetic music, ambient music, and bassy instrumental music. If you deny that then you're just spewing lies.

 

1. The new earpad implementation has a strong basis on certain tweaks and focuses in my Jergpad mod; other things have also been discussed ad infinitum by people (moving the cable outlet on the cup forward 15 degrees, more comfortable headband). Fang sees value in iteration as well as taking in suggestions from the community, so him considering improving the new baffles is not out of bounds at all.

 

1. The midrange resonance issue with the old vs new baffles has nothing to do with the bass conduction. The old baffles were wider and obscured more of the driver, hence that. The bass suggestion is about coupling between the baffle and the driver which is entirely unrelated on a design perspective.

 

1. For the demo unit sent out, so far I'm the only one analyzing the sound characteristics on a trait-to-trait basis; that is not a SQ analysis style taken on by everyone (in fact, very few do it this way), I just like to do it. And that so happens to expose more technical information about sound characteristics than "holistic" listening impressions (which is what most reviews tend to be).

 
So are you shut down enough yet? Or do I need to embarass you further? 

 

 

[conquerator2]

Now all the haters will come. Booo! Smack Hifiman for trying to make their cans better...
I really feel like head-fi is just a bunch of snobs sometimes. No offense to the legitimate headphone enthusiasts, but I find some statements totally ridiculous and irrational...

+1 to Jerg's post.

 

[grizzlybeast]

Thanks for clarifying jerg I smelled vs from jump yo.

Pretty dumb we have to explain sub bass value.

 

[Kendoji]

Yeah what a mess. How dare Hifiman release yet another set of amazing headphones. And then listen to customer feedback! I would certainly never spend money with a company like that.

Sigh...

 

[henwell]

" are you shut down enough yet? Or do I need to embarass you further? 

"
This tone doesn't really seem necessary  we are talking about a hobby here, headphones and music

 

[WTFGoD]

  " are you shut down enough yet? Or do I need to embarass you further? 

"
This tone doesn't really seem necessary  we are talking about a hobby here, headphones and music

 
Don't you see the smiley face??? That makes it okay, duh.
 
I actually don't mind it at all, ^ is not being sarcastic.

 

[tigon_ridge]

  I personally haven't found a headphone that can really show off how the sub bass is supposed to translate to in real life. The closest thing was a Denon that could emulate a subwoofer. HE-500, LCD-2 and LCD-3 all failed at this despite them going very low. It simply doesn't have that push and pull kind off feel that you get with a sub. You're supposed to feel the sub bass which adds to the experience. Besides the Denon or Fostex, none of them can come close to emulating it. 

Headphones will be headphones. When you try to get headphones to shake and rattle your skull, you very likely end up with a bass-tilted headphone. Almost all the graphs of Denon cans show some amount of bass exaggeration, while the flat D2000 seems to have a steep roll off. The LCD-2 has the most linear bass I've ever seen on paper (no roll off). I think you're expecting headphones to sound like speakers, which is a road that can only lead to disappointment.

 

[jerg]

  " are you shut down enough yet? Or do I need to embarass you further? 

"
This tone doesn't really seem necessary  we are talking about a hobby here, headphones and music

Nothing more than a little tongue in cheek action to drive the points home. Don't be one of those guys please.

 

[Zoom25]

  Headphones will be headphones. When you try to get headphones to shake and rattle your skull, you very likely end up with a bass-tilted headphone. Almost all the graphs of Denon cans show some amount of bass exaggeration, while the flat D2000 seems to have a steep roll off. The LCD-2 has the most linear bass I've ever seen on paper (no roll off). I think you're expecting headphones to sound like speakers, which is a road that can only lead to disappointment.

 
No, there is a difference between what you are suggesting and what I am suggesting. I'm not a fan of shaking and rattling. If I liked that, I would've gone with Ultrasone Pro 900. The LCD-2 is the closest thing to a subwoofer among planars that I've tried so far. Although, I listen to my D2000 on monitoring equipment mostly. The bass is super tight and controlled, yet still retains the subwoofer feel, especially for movies. Hence they are my favourite headphones for movies to this day. It's a hard thing to explain through words. Regardless, I'm quite happy with them for movies and whenever I'm confined to headphones, the Denons deliver.

 

[mynameisdan]

Just my two cents about subwoofer emulation: keep in mind that FR is certainly not a flat line with a 5.1 or 7.2 system. More often than not, subwoofers activate only in the 12-50 Hz range, and most enthusiasts crank a substantial amount of power into them with large woofers. If you graphed the response at a listening point in the room, that sub-bass would be way out of proportion compared to the rest of the listening spectrum.
 
You can't expect 5-6cm drivers to mimic or come even close to what a 16" dedicated woofer can do. I think that Audezes do a pretty remarkable job at sub-bass presentation considering the physical limitations of a headphone. In addition to that, you can adjust the equalization to exaggerate the sub-bass if you really value getting your jaw rattled.