[Humblepie]

Hi everyone.
I'm really happy with my HE-560, but from some weeks now, i'm wondering if they are driven correctly. I have a Teac UD-503 which outputs 500+500mW on 32 ohms in unbalanced mode and 700+700mW on a balanced mode which requires a cable with double 1/4" plug. So i started figuring out what to do and i came to two options:
1) sell the teac and buy an audioGD NFB 28.38. The dac on the audioGD is considerably worse but the amp section far better. (i can't pair an additional amp to my teac because of space and money)
2) buy a balanced cable specific for the teac and take advantage of ud-503's full power.
what do you think?

First I heard or read that the AKM AK4490 dac in that teac is better that the Sabre ES9038pro in the audio gd.

 

[filo9s]

First I heard or read that the AKM AK4490 dac in that teac is better that the Sabre ES9038pro in the audio gd.

well, it's a dual mono design with dual toroidal transformer and a much more sophisticated dac board. The teac is more a "dac-centric" product, the audioGD is more "amp-centric".

 

[phthora]

Hi everyone.
I'm really happy with my HE-560, but from some weeks now, i'm wondering if they are driven correctly. I have a Teac UD-503 which outputs 500+500mW on 32 ohms in unbalanced mode and 700+700mW on a balanced mode which requires a cable with double 1/4" plug. So i started figuring out what to do and i came to two options:
1) sell the teac and buy an audioGD NFB 28.38. The dac on the audioGD is considerably worse but the amp section far better. (i can't pair an additional amp to my teac because of space and money)
2) buy a balanced cable specific for the teac and take advantage of ud-503's full power.
what do you think?

I own the 28.38 and have heard a couple of Teacs and several 4490s. The Audio-gd DAC is considerably better. The detail, resolution, separation, imaging are significantly better than the 4490s in the Teac. If you feel the urge to disagree or believe that DACs make no difference, then just keep the Teac. It has enough power to run the 560s well and you already like the sound. Why spend money you don't have to? Drop $75 on a balanced cable and be done.

The 28.38 with the 560 is an amazing combo, but it won't fill the mids in as much as the Teacs I've heard.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Hi everyone.
I'm really happy with my HE-560, but from some weeks now, i'm wondering if they are driven correctly. I have a Teac UD-503 which outputs 500+500mW on 32 ohms in unbalanced mode and 700+700mW on a balanced mode which requires a cable with double 1/4" plug. So i started figuring out what to do and i came to two options:
1) sell the teac and buy an audioGD NFB 28.38. The dac on the audioGD is considerably worse but the amp section far better. (i can't pair an additional amp to my teac because of space and money)
2) buy a balanced cable specific for the teac and take advantage of ud-503's full power.
what do you think?

Why do you wonder about this? What symptoms of poorly driven are you experiencing specifically? I think it is an insidious habit in this hobby to start off liking our gear, and then wondering what we may be missing which quickly turns into being sure we are missing something and thus need new gear. How loud do you like music playback, and is the Teac able to reach those levels with a little room on the volume dial, or do you listen to it on full?

 

[raoultrifan]

Get the amp you love and pair it with a D50 or D30 from Topping, which are quite cheap and measure perfectly (jitter, SNR, THD).

Personally I found very good results with my HE-560 with PLAY and FUN from Burson, but also very good results with Matrix M-Stage HOA 3 B (all 3 are having discreet output stage).

 

[filo9s]

Why do you wonder about this? What symptoms of poorly driven are you experiencing specifically? I think it is an insidious habit in this hobby to start off liking our gear, and then wondering what we may be missing which quickly turns into being sure we are missing something and thus need new gear. How loud do you like music playback, and is the Teac able to reach those levels with a little room on the volume dial, or do you listen to it on full?

the volume dial goes from -99dB up to +24dB. Usually i listen at -20dB and at -10dB is painfully loud with most songs. For me seems all fine (well maybe except just a little grain on treble at very high levels, past -7dB) but i read everywhere that for the HE-560 the absolute minimum is 1 watt, then i started asking myself if there's room for improvement, if they are poorly driven, if with an audioGD it could be much better...

 

[phthora]

the volume dial goes from -99dB up to +24dB. Usually i listen at -20dB and at -10dB is painfully loud with most songs. For me seems all fine (well maybe except just a little grain on treble at very high levels, past -7dB) but i read everywhere that for the HE-560 the absolute minimum is 1 watt, then i started asking myself if there's room for improvement, if they are poorly driven, if with an audioGD it could be much better...

Here. Run the numbers for yourself:
http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html

Put in 45 ohm impedance and 90 db SP/V. If you can figure about how loud you listen, you can get a very accurate idea of how much power is required.

Also, I'm using the spec listed here:
https://www.headphone.com/products/hifiman-he-560

May not be 100% accurate.

 

[Humblepie]

Get the amp you love and pair it with a D50 or D30 from Topping, which are quite cheap and measure perfectly (jitter, SNR, THD).

Personally I found very good results with my HE-560 with PLAY and FUN from Burson, but also very good results with Matrix M-Stage HOA 3 B (all 3 are having discreet output stage).

The Topping products, and many smaller dacs, use Sabres ES930Q2M2 dac chip and implementation. They are very good, but slightly less than the pro series. Which is just physically larger to implement.

well, it's a dual mono design with dual toroidal transformer and a much more sophisticated dac board. The teac is more a "dac-centric" product, the audioGD is more "amp-centric".

I'm still just trying to figure out how the AK490, which is known to have distortion especially at 1K, is considered better than the ES9038 line which is about as clean an output signal you can get from a DAC is better. Unless you like that.

https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/akm-verita-4490-dac/
It is a very good chip, but isn't a better implementation of a DAC over the ES9038pro when measured. When it comes to a DAC, there is really only one thing that matters. The measured output. Total Harmonic Distortion (which should be as close to 0 as possible), and SNR are the big two measurements. It does fair alright against the older ES9018, but not the ES9038 pro. AKM has also made improvements on the AK4490 since 2014 with the AK4497 and others. Even the AK4493 is considered an upgrade to the AK4490. Both of which are newer implementations of the AK4490 with better output measurements. Neither of those two still outclass the ES9038 pro though.

A DAC's main job is to output the cleanest signal possible. Output "modes" like DSD and whatnot are nice to haves after that. If I want coloration to my sound I'll let my AMP handle that (which is what my tubes are for).

 

[filo9s]

Here. Run the numbers for yourself:
http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html

Put in 45 ohm impedance and 90 db SP/V. If you can figure about how loud you listen, you can get a very accurate idea of how much power is required.

Also, I'm using the spec listed here:
https://www.headphone.com/products/hifiman-he-560

May not be 100% accurate.

uhm think it's 90dB/mW, with dB/V i got an abnormous 22W for 120dB and 7W for 115dB... well with 90dB/mW i got a 315mW for a 115dB level which is handled by teac.

I own the 28.38 and have heard a couple of Teacs and several 4490s. The Audio-gd DAC is considerably better. The detail, resolution, separation, imaging are significantly better than the 4490s in the Teac. If you feel the urge to disagree or believe that DACs make no difference, then just keep the Teac. It has enough power to run the 560s well and you already like the sound. Why spend money you don't have to? Drop $75 on a balanced cable and be done.

The 28.38 with the 560 is an amazing combo, but it won't fill the mids in as much as the Teacs I've heard.

well, my first concern was the amp section, regarding the dac, the teac completely satisfies me even on speaker side.
I was worried that the teac poorly drives them.

 

[phthora]

Well said, Humblepie.

uhm think it's 90dB/mW, with dB/V i got an abnormous 22W for 120dB and 7W for 115dB... well with 90dB/mW i got a 315mW for a 115dB level which is handled by teac.

well, my first concern was the amp section, regarding the dac, the teac completely satisfies me even on speaker side.
I was worried that the teac poorly drives them.

Yeah, I figured those that was the wrong unit being used for sensitivity, but I figured I would air on the side of needing more power. Most people listen around 85 db, so even with the higher numbers it should be fine. An Audio-gd amp will drive anything but electrostats, so it is nice to have one so that you no longer need to worry about that aspect of your audio chain. I think the amp is incredible, but that is more of a subjective judgment than the DAC question.

 

[filo9s]

Well said, Humblepie.



Yeah, I figured those that was the wrong unit being used for sensitivity, but I figured I would air on the side of needing more power. Most people listen around 85 db, so even with the higher numbers it should be fine. An Audio-gd amp will drive anything but electrostats, so it is nice to have one so that you no longer need to worry about that aspect of your audio chain. I think the amp is incredible, but that is more of a subjective judgment than the DAC question.

And what do you think about the pairing? Will the he560 with a balanced cable well driven or there's room for improvement? Some people told me (well, without try them first) that 500mW (or 700mW in balanced) are too few for that headphone.
I was looking at those cables that seems very well made, and offers the double 6.35mm TRS balanced https://www.ebay.com/itm/ArcticCabl...hash=item2143bf3b99:m:mQGRLlS-9myJhsXlRCUS0xw

 

[phthora]

And what do you think about the pairing? Will the he560 with a balanced cable well driven or there's room for improvement? Some people told me (well, without try them first) that 500mW (or 700mW in balanced) are too few for that headphone.
I was looking at those cables that seems very well made, and offers the double 6.35mm TRS balanced https://www.ebay.com/itm/ArcticCabl...hash=item2143bf3b99:m:mQGRLlS-9myJhsXlRCUS0xw

I am big fan of balanced audio. Slowly, I've been trying to balance all the 'phones I can. Sometimes it makes a big difference in sound quality, sometimes it makes no difference that I can hear. There has even been a case where I've opted to return to single-ended. It's one of those topics that sparks endless debate, but now you know where I stand on it.

I thought the 560 did benefit from going balanced. Separation, clarity, imaging, and resolution improved over SE on my Violectric amp (which is an excellent, clean amp). The reason that the 560 improved, I think, is that the subtle adjustments balanced makes to sound quality is already in line with the strength of the headphones. On the other hand, I also like the 560 with my Black Label, which is technically not even in the same ballpark as the 28.38, because it offers a more euphonic sound and fills in the thin mids of the 560. I keep returning to that point because the Audio-gd is not going to sound like the Teac. If you want more detail et cetera like I mentioned, go for the 28.38. If you like warmer mids and a fuller sound, keep the Teac.

Unfortunately, I cannot weigh in on that particular cable, but I have and love my Venus Audio, Periapt, and Dyson cables, with the Venus Audio one being my favorite for at-home use.

 

[filo9s]

I am big fan of balanced audio. Slowly, I've been trying to balance all the 'phones I can. Sometimes it makes a big difference in sound quality, sometimes it makes no difference that I can hear. There has even been a case where I've opted to return to single-ended. It's one of those topics that sparks endless debate, but now you know where I stand on it.

I thought the 560 did benefit from going balanced. Separation, clarity, imaging, and resolution improved over SE on my Violectric amp (which is an excellent, clean amp). The reason that the 560 improved, I think, is that the subtle adjustments balanced makes to sound quality is already in line with the strength of the headphones. On the other hand, I also like the 560 with my Black Label, which is technically not even in the same ballpark as the 28.38, because it offers a more euphonic sound and fills in the thin mids of the 560. I keep returning to that point because the Audio-gd is not going to sound like the Teac. If you want more detail et cetera like I mentioned, go for the 28.38. If you like warmer mids and a fuller sound, keep the Teac.

Unfortunately, I cannot weigh in on that particular cable, but I have and love my Venus Audio, Periapt, and Dyson cables, with the Venus Audio one being my favorite for at-home use.

yup i'd like a more warmer, relaxed and thicker sound, that's why i picked the teac and i like it a lot as a dac (bought first for my old HD800, which is an excellent pair - it compensates the dryness of the HD800). Also, i think it's a better balance to avoid poorly mastered tracks from sounding even worse. If you think that from a mere point of power it's all ok, i'll go for a balanced cable for the teac

 

[Baten]

yup i'd like a more warmer, relaxed and thicker sound, that's why i picked the teac and i like it a lot as a dac (bought first for my old HD800, which is an excellent pair - it compensates the dryness of the HD800). Also, i think it's a better balance to avoid poorly mastered tracks from sounding even worse. If you think that from a mere point of power it's all ok, i'll go for a balanced cable for the teac

Good decision imo.

 

[phthora]

yup i'd like a more warmer, relaxed and thicker sound, that's why i picked the teac and i like it a lot as a dac (bought first for my old HD800, which is an excellent pair - it compensates the dryness of the HD800). Also, i think it's a better balance to avoid poorly mastered tracks from sounding even worse. If you think that from a mere point of power it's all ok, i'll go for a balanced cable for the teac

To put the power thing in perspective... I like the 560 with the Fiio A5 which does 800mW into 32 ohm IIRC. Decent power, but not a powerhouse. Drives the 560 well. Still not a super-resolving amp, but it suits the sound signature and has more than enough power.

The Audio-gd makes the 560 sound like they are: clear, fast, bright, with great bass extension. It resolves the treble well so the amount of treble is less bothersome than usual, but it's not going to make them sound thick or warm. I like that for variety, but it's not my preferred sig either.

I think a cable is a great place to start. If you upgrade the amp later, you can still use the cable of course.