[drwlf]

@DW75 @hikaru12 Funny how we hear and describe things.
I wouldn't call the k712 warm, having good bass, and the 'clarity' is quite ambiguous. Definitely not a step-up from the 400i, at least from any technical or a measurable standpoint. Yeah, the soundstage is unnaturally wide, and that's about it. After that it's just personal preferences, and shouldn't be touted as a "step up".

 

[Lurk650]

FWIW, I listened to that Back on my Feet song through my lowly Galaxy S8 and it sounded pretty much the same as on my Pioneer HRM-6. It's a weird song vocal wise in general, IMO. Didn't notice anything weird or bad.

Enjoying these out of my Opus#1 the past few nights

 

[hikaru12]

@DW75 @hikaru12 Funny how we hear and describe things.
I wouldn't call the k712 warm, having good bass, and the 'clarity' is quite ambiguous. Definitely not a step-up from the 400i, at least from any technical or a measurable standpoint. Yeah, the soundstage is unnaturally wide, and that's about it. After that it's just personal preferences, and shouldn't be touted as a "step up".

The 712 does bass better than a non modded 400i. That is a fact. The original 400s were better for bass because of they had a backplate that was removed in this iteration. Technically, the 400I is better because of their technology and because of their good neutrality. The Oppos use planars as well and yet they are not the crown Jewel of planars in their price point. One could argue the HD600s are a step up at the same price in terms of neutrality, regardless, by clarification I'm referring to the sound signature of the AKGs.

While the 400is enjoy a lot of airyness and forward mids the AKGs have a much wider soundstage with better bass and slightly richer mids (not forward tho).

In the current lineup it seems that the 560s are the current cream of the crop. It's getting harder to say the 400is are perfect when there's a lot more options at the $300 price range. Love mine and tinkering with it tho.

 

[drwlf]

@hikaru12
Regarding the bass, the fact is that the K7xx-line with the dynamic driver measures poorer in the bass region, and rolls off more vs. the 400i. The distortion and the roll-off is audible. There's no way around this.

I won't delve further into the backplateless/unit variation points, but singling out the backplateless version is moot, as mine doesn't have a substantial roll off.
This 'woollyness' and technically less accurate bass can be perceived as "doing the bass better", where a crude analogy in the speaker world might be how standing waves/room resonances affect the listening experience even more than the drivers technical abilities (removing them completely would be harrowingly unnatural), as I said; it's a matter of preference. I won't even start on tubes vs. ss.

And yeah, by clarity - there's cheaper headphones with darker sound signatures which extract microdetail/plankton better than the K7xx-series. The K7xx-line is plagued by the "reference sound" of years past - artificially boosting some treble frequencies to make them seem more detailed than they actually are, as for example leading edges are better heard.

There's no 'cream of the crop', or 'crown jewels' in the sub 1000$ category, it's mainly just how they suit your personal preferences.
Bashing Oppo makes no sense as the PM-series are well regarded. And the modified PMx2 probably fits in your crown jewels-category, it has Oppo technology.

Pouring money on headphones generally; but not without exception, get you better technical performance, but even so, personal preferences often matter more than that.
Touting something 'definitely' better than the 400i in the same price class shouldn't become a norm; it just adds to the confusion of mid-fi hell.
In my humble opinion, the technicalities of headphones do improve markedly when the price approaches the 1000$-line and more, but I'll leave it at that.
I'm not saying that the law of diminishing returns do not exist, it's simply not a constant. Most, if not all headphones in that category are better than their mid-fi counterparts in technically producing the sound, but you might not like the sound - you might not like what you hear.
Additionally, when it comes to R&D and production costs, the price changes in the HiFiMAN line do seem to underline their relative cheapness in China. Technology moves forward, and even without trickling down, the newer stuff is often better than the older. Grabbing anything by their MSRP is the greatest faux pas in this hobby; listen to the headphones you're interested in, and grab them from a sale if you deem that value acceptable.

 

[DavidA]

He400i is like the planar equivalent of hd600. Don't bother changing. If you want a real upgrade save up for hd800. Once you hear high end you will be amazed... And it's worth it.

The HE400i is not a "planar equivalent" of the HD600 IMO, quite different sound signatures to me and most people that I know who have heard/owned both. The HD800 might be a technical upgrade but not all like its sound signature in addition to the issue of also getting an amp that will pair well with the HD800.

The 712 will be my next set. It hits on my end game sound signature I'm looking for (warm with lots of clarity and good bass). Just wish it was in a different color. How hard would it be to paint that orange metal bit that runs up top? Is it easy to remove without compromising the structural integrity of the can?

The K712 pro didn't sound like a "upgrade" to the HE400i the few times I've heard them but I did like the more extended highs which gave it better sound stage/imaging but the bass was a little on the thin side for some genres IMO. I remember seeing some paint the headbands but can't remember where I saw it (might have been in the K7XX thread)

 

[dweaver]

The 712 will be my next set. It hits on my end game sound signature I'm looking for (warm with lots of clarity and good bass). Just wish it was in a different color. How hard would it be to paint that orange metal bit that runs up top? Is it easy to remove without compromising the structural integrity of the can?

I have owned the Q701 which did the hole mod to and liked a lot becaise of the added warmth. I then upgraded to the K712 and while I initially liked the sound I eventually found it to thin sounding and fatiguing for daily use. In the end I sold the K712 and moved on. The 400i straddles the modded Q701 and the K712 in terms of warmth while having detail more like the K712 with none of the K712's fatigue.

 

[dweaver]

He400i is like the planar equivalent of hd600. Don't bother changing. If you want a real upgrade save up for hd800. Once you hear high end you will be amazed... And it's worth it.

I have owned both and do not agree that the 400i is a planar equivalent to the HD600. The 400i has deeper bass and a more forward midrange as well as distinctly different treble as compared to the HD600. The layering and imaging of the 400i is also higher then the HD600.

I do agree the HD800 is an upgrade in both though but at 3+ times the cost it should be...

 

[crazy88888888]

I have owned both and do not agree that the 400i is a planar equivalent to the HD600. The 400i has deeper bass and a more forward midrange as well as distinctly different treble as compared to the HD600. The layering and imaging of the 400i is also higher then the HD600.

I do agree the HD800 is an upgrade in both though but at 3+ times the cost it should be...

Sorry, I think I should have worded it differently.
I meant the guy should not bother with changing unless it's a REAL upgrade. And HD800/HD800S is for sure.

I went through a bunch of headphones in the mid-fi tier until my friend brought over his LCD-3 and I understood why flagships are worth it regardless of the diminished return. Soon after got the HD800S and absolutely love it.

 

[peter123]

Sorry, I think I should have worded it differently.
I meant the guy should not bother with changing unless it's a REAL upgrade. And HD800/HD800S is for sure.

I went through a bunch of headphones in the mid-fi tier until my friend brought over his LCD-3 and I understood why flagships are worth it regardless of the diminished return. Soon after got the HD800S and absolutely love it.

I think it's a matter of preference, not in headphone sound but in usage.

I've (like many others in here) got a good amount of headphones rather than jumping from one to another because I really enjoy to be able to listen to different sound signatures. Sometimes I find the HE400i to be more enjoyable (and at least a nice change) to the HE560 and HD800S for exactly. Same goes for the rest of the midtier headphones in my collection. To me they all got their strengths and I do honestly enjoyed them all in their own ways.

 

[crazy88888888]

I think it's a matter of preference, not in headphone sound but in usage.

I've (like many others in here) got a good amount of headphones rather than jumping from one to another because I really enjoy to be able to listen to different sound signatures. Sometimes I find the HE400i to be more enjoyable (and at least a nice change) to the HE560 and HD800S for exactly. Same goes for the rest of the midtier headphones in my collection. To me they all got their strengths and I do honestly enjoyed them all in their own ways.

Yeah you're absolutely right about preference.
For me .. once I heard flagships I can't go back because I psychologically assume it's better.

 

[HungryPanda]

I have a couple of flagships The LCD-X and Beyer T1.2 but on my desk right now are HE-400i, Denon D7200 and AKG K712 Pro. I'm actually sitting here with Tinaudio T2 iems in and happy listening to music. I try to rotate my headphones but sometimes just too content as I am

 

[hikaru12]

Sorry, I think I should have worded it differently.
I meant the guy should not bother with changing unless it's a REAL upgrade. And HD800/HD800S is for sure.

I went through a bunch of headphones in the mid-fi tier until my friend brought over his LCD-3 and I understood why flagships are worth it regardless of the diminished return. Soon after got the HD800S and absolutely love it.

I'm not looking to spend more than I spent on my gaming PC on finding synergy between flagships and their amps. Mid tiers all have their individual strengths which is why I don't nag on why their not perfect. As long as they have my preferred signature (warm with good amounts of clarity) then why would I go out and drop 2-3k on a set of cans? At the end of the day it's all about how it sounds to the user no matter how technically detailed or superior a flagship or another set of headphones is.

I have owned the Q701 which did the hole mod to and liked a lot becaise of the added warmth. I then upgraded to the K712 and while I initially liked the sound I eventually found it to thin sounding and fatiguing for daily use. In the end I sold the K712 and moved on. The 400i straddles the modded Q701 and the K712 in terms of warmth while having detail more like the K712 with none of the K712's fatigue.

The only time I've heard the 712s described as fatiguing is with very treble heavy music. From my understanding the 712s were modified 702s with better soundstage, relaxed treble and better bass. I haven't heard them described as thin by many people from all the reviews I've read. They're praised all over the place for their price to performance and because I game the soundstage would help me a lot. I'm not looking to spend more than $500 but it seems it has warmth with a bit of neutrality and when properly equalized I've heard it sounds quite good - the opposite of lean. What was your DAC and Amp setup? That plays a big role on how they've sounded to me. With my new amp, the treble that was bothering me with my old amp from the 400is no longer does.

 

[drwlf]

I'd have to agree with @DavidA about the thinness in the bass region, they're not suited for all the genres, and I personally developed issues with the K7xx-lines treble peaks. They do work for gaming rather splendidly; albeit if there's background noise, and for that reason turn up the volume (or just for perceived extra oomph in the lower registers), do take care of your hearing and think about the volume twice.

Regarding all of their shared technicalities, there isn't really a world of difference, they have much more in common than they're different. Reviews are reviews, they nitpick on quite minor differences, after all, who would buy the 'same' stuff again, just packaged and branded differently? The ninja/shadow upgrades during normal production runs, Austria/Slovakia/China production origins, and unit variation probably contribute to the changes between the K7xx-line, almost, if not just as much as 'official' technical improvements and tunings. It's really that small of a difference.

 

[DavidA]

Yeah you're absolutely right about preference.
For me .. once I heard flagships I can't go back because I psychologically assume it's better.

You are not the first and nor will you be the last that "psychologically" assumes that more expensive is always better

While on the subject of the "psychological" effect of assumption, I'm selling some cables that have been sprinkled with angel dust and infused with the magical elixir of Drogon's blood. These cable will transform any headphone from bottom of the line to TOTL and can be yours for the bargain price of "one million dollars" as Dr Evil likes to say

PS: hope everyone is having a great start to the weekend, TGIF

 

[393699]

Some people here are incorrect regarding the K712 Pro. Claiming that the K712 Pro is thin or lacking bass is completely untrue. In fact, the K712 Pro has more bass than a stock and unmodded HE400i, without question. I know this, as I own both headphones.