[yokken]

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Don't forget the 'fixed' treble with these replacements, the piercing grain the treble is now gone.

 
To be honest, I wasn't sure how much I really heard a piercing treble on the old model. It was a bit hotter but not terribly so. Either way, I have the ones I should have had before. I'm happy. 

 

[jerg]

Quote:

 
To be honest, I wasn't sure how much I really heard a piercing treble on the old model. It was a bit hotter but not terribly so. Either way, I have the ones I should have had before. I'm happy. 

Haha so you just sort of "went with the flow" and replaced for the sake of replacement, and not because of the defect, fair enough.
 
The grain (or technically, the resonance caused by the magnet array with rev3 drivers) really only messed up voices, it was not noticeable with other music.

 

[yokken]

I only really had them for a few days before I returned them, so I didn't have a lot of time to get used to the sound or pick it apart critically. They really did sound epic with my Lyr though. They don't sound quite as awesome with these ones as they did right before I boxed them up, but I expect them to get better over the next 20 hours or so.

 

[rawrster]

The HE-400 is quite different in signature than the other orthos I've tried. I haven't tried them all but the majority of the non vintage orthos such as LCD2/3, HE-4, HE500, HE6 and the T50RP. The closest was when I  modded the T50RP but those are still quite different due to closed. It has good extension like all the orthos I've tried but with this signature it's hard to compare to the other headphones I have. 
 
I expected these to be something like the D7k but in open and ortho form but not quite. A bit more enjoyable for me and less colored than the D7k but still colored. It's too bad I no longer own the V200 amp. I suspect that would have been a good pairing. I'm using the Mjolnir amp on these and so far so good. I don't have anything SE except the D1 headphone out which is no slouch. I'll try those eventually.

 

[franklyshankly]

So I've read everything there is to read about these cans (quite the drama I have to say) and I'm more confused now than when I started reading. I'm trying to decide between these and the hd 650s. I've owned the 650s before so I know what to expect and honestly they are really great for me but I like hifiman and I would loooooove better bass than 650 offers but wouldn't want to sacrifice too much mid. Also I don't want a bright high end which is what drew me to the 400s in the first place. They were originally described as darker than the 650s with better bass which would be perfect! But with all the revisions I'm not really sure what to make of these. Seems like they are refined D2000s? I guess I'm trying to figure out how the mids and highs sound on these! A recessed upper mid doesn't seem great but are the mids overall recessed? Detailed life like vocals are a deal breaker for me, are these the right cans? So confused.

 

[RushNerd]

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So I've read everything there is to read about these cans (quite the drama I have to say) and I'm more confused now than when I started reading. I'm trying to decide between these and the hd 650s. I've owned the 650s before so I know what to expect and honestly they are really great for me but I like hifiman and I would loooooove better bass than 650 offers but wouldn't want to sacrifice too much mid. Also I don't want a bright high end which is what drew me to the 400s in the first place. They were originally described as darker than the 650s with better bass which would be perfect! But with all the revisions I'm not really sure what to make of these. Seems like they are refined D2000s? I guess I'm trying to figure out how the mids and highs sound on these! A recessed upper mid doesn't seem great but are the mids overall recessed? Detailed life like vocals are a deal breaker for me, are these the right cans? So confused.

Me and Matt have been though this, I covered it in my video review too; it's personal choice. I had both for a while (though not with my lyr, I bet the 650s would come to life with it) and choose the 400's. It just comes down to how you like your music presented to you! The 650s will always be more agreeable and pleasing while the 400s will always been more detailed and balanced. I'm speaking generally of course because you can change them with different amps, but more or less you have to pick what is most important to you. I much prefer the 400's voicing, but the 650 is REALLY hard to resist.

 

[franklyshankly]

I've read the comparisons and really appreciate your efforts on the thread .... Not sure why I have such trouble understanding the 400 sound sig. You say it's balanced so the mids aren't as pronounced as the 650 but they aren't exactly recessed? Are they still warm and dark with some trouble at the high end? The 400 sounds so unique and the bass/separation/layering are so tempting but I'm not interested in much of a V signature (D2000 ultimately annoyed me despite overall pleasing sound because of what I found to be recessed mids) ... If the bass is not strong (since these are not basshead cans) where is the meat of the signature? Is it accepted that the 400 is more detailed than the 650?

 

[TMRaven]

From a neutrality standpoint, 650 is less colored and more flat.  I dare say the HD650 would be dead flat if it weren't for sub-bass rolloff and a lack of airiness above 12khz.
 
Try not to confuse laid-back with recessed, at least not recessed used in the head-fi sense, whose definition is more along the lines of masked.  HE-400's upper mids are laid-back in the sense that they take a step back in the picture, but still show through with full detail.  D2000's upper mids are recessed in the sense that they take a step back in the picture and are masked by bass and treble, therefore losing detail.
 
The bass of the HE-400 isn't basshead level, but it still makes the HE-400 very thick sounding, along with full-bodied lower mids.
 
I think the HE-400 is more detailed and has better instrument separation than the HD650, but HD650 has a smoother midrange with less congestion, and in comparison, its more forward upper mids work well for rock with electric guitar etc.

 

[MattTCG]

Quote:

I've read the comparisons and really appreciate your efforts on the thread .... Not sure why I have such trouble understanding the 400 sound sig. You say it's balanced so the mids aren't as pronounced as the 650 but they aren't exactly recessed? Are they still warm and dark with some trouble at the high end? The 400 sounds so unique and the bass/separation/layering are so tempting but I'm not interested in much of a V signature (D2000 ultimately annoyed me despite overall pleasing sound because of what I found to be recessed mids) ... If the bass is not strong (since these are not basshead cans) where is the meat of the signature? Is it accepted that the 400 is more detailed than the 650?

 
I might give a slight nod to detail with the he400. I think that is the general perception at least. This may be due to the fact that the he400 amps so easily and the hd650 needs a good amp to really get it's legs. When I was listening with the e09, the he400 sounded clearly better. But once I switched to the lyr it became a different ballgame all together. I love dark and detailed. Both of these headphones do that, but on the lyr the hd650 does it better. It took me about a week to let me ears adjust to less sub bass on the hd650, but once I did and started to listen to the mids on the hd650...I was hooked. 
 
For me, there is no bad/wrong choice. Just get both. 

 

[franklyshankly]

Okay that's actually helpful thank you! I'm just confused when you say the 400 has better detail and instrument separation but yet the 650 is less congested in the mids ... I always think of congestion to be antithetical to separation ... The 650 mids are more spacious and clearer than 400 but not necessarily more detailed or separated? I think I'm leaning towards the 400 just because of the bass .... Seems like its coming down to 400 bass vs 650 mids .....

 

[jerg]

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Okay that's actually helpful thank you! I'm just confused when you say the 400 has better detail and instrument separation but yet the 650 is less congested in the mids ... I always think of congestion to be antithetical to separation ... The 650 mids are more spacious and clearer than 400 but not necessarily more detailed or separated? I think I'm leaning towards the 400 just because of the bass .... Seems like its coming down to 400 bass vs 650 mids .....

 
Nah I think what he means is, HE400s have more lower mids than upper mids, so its mids sound "meatier" (not necessarily "congested"), while HE650s have more upper mids presence so it sounds lighter. In terms of separation/sheer detail HE400s are still better, by a fair margin too (especially separation).

 

[MattTCG]

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Nah I think what he means is, HE400s have more lower mids than upper mids, so its mids sound "meatier" (not necessarily "congested"), while HE650s have more upper mids presence so it sounds lighter. In terms of separation/sheer detail HE400s are still better, by a fair margin too (especially separation).

 
this^^

 

[TMRaven]

That might play into it a bit, but from a strictly transient standpoint, the HD650 does have less congested mids.  Objective measurements can pinpoint the cause of it being a higher distortion throughout the midrange.  When I first put on the HE-400 coming from the HD650, its mids sounded very syrupy and liquidy in comparison, while the HD650's mids were more snappy.  Despite that 'downfall' (some people might like the effect) the instrument separation (ability to keep track of any specific instrument during complex passages of songs) was still there and more evident on the HE-400s than the HD650s I felt. The sheer speed of the planar driver just powers through that little shortcoming I feel.  Others like Purrin note this shortcoming too and say it makes the HE-400 sound less clean than it should be, but still highly, highly detailed.

 

[Fearless1]

Quote:

I've read the comparisons and really appreciate your efforts on the thread .... Not sure why I have such trouble understanding the 400 sound sig. You say it's balanced so the mids aren't as pronounced as the 650 but they aren't exactly recessed? Are they still warm and dark with some trouble at the high end? The 400 sounds so unique and the bass/separation/layering are so tempting but I'm not interested in much of a V signature (D2000 ultimately annoyed me despite overall pleasing sound because of what I found to be recessed mids) ... If the bass is not strong (since these are not basshead cans) where is the meat of the signature? Is it accepted that the 400 is more detailed than the 650?

Honestly, if I were choosing between the 650 and the HE-400 I would consider what amp is going to be used. The HE-400 sounds great off of  an amp like the O2 or the M-stage, whereas the 650 is just phenomenal off of a tube, tube/hybrid amp. This is not to say that the HE-400 is not complimented by a higher power tube amp as well, but there is just something special about the synergy the 650s have with this type of amplification(at least to my ears).

 

[Madmollusk]

I think it might boil down to this: do you want best in class sub-bass, accompanied by a thicker, juicer, meatier mid-bass presentation with layers and layers of low end detail, accompanied by holographic imaging? If so, then go with the he400 without a doubt.  You already know what the Hd650s sound like, so I wont describe them, but know this: the hd650s can't hold a candle to the he400s bass. With that said, I absolutely love the hd650s mid-range presentation; they just stomp all over the he400s in this one little area. In the final analysis, however, I think the he400 may have more hi-fi bona fides, while the hd650 is the tried and true.