[diamondears]

Can't comment on the OCC cable, but I just ordered my first replacement cable for my HE400s. Got a nice Forza Audio Works cable being made! :atsmile:

How is it with the HE-400? What's the difference from the stock cable?

 

[JoshPelican]

Unfortunately, I haven't received them yet. Only placed my order last night! I'll let you know when I get them.

 

[ArmAndHammer]

Agree with above comments that a quality driver/HP would reveal faults of poor recordings.

Armandhammer, maybe it's time to buy better audiophile recordings...

No need since the X2 plays my recordings beautifully
 
Besides...what if the music one wants to listen to doesn't come in uber high quality recordings? I'm not going to change my taste in music to suit my headphones. I'm changing my headphones to suit my music which is what I did and I couldn't be happier. Not to say that my recordings are 100% at fault, I'm sure it's a combo of recordings and headphone shortcomings. The HE-400 was even harsh when I was listening to some of
my Mapleshade recordings and those are anything but poorly recorded tracks.

 

[htr2d2]

  No need since the X2 plays my recordings beautifully
 
Besides...what if the music one wants to listen to doesn't come in uber high quality recordings? I'm not going to change my taste in music to suit my headphones. I'm changing my headphones to suit my music which is what I did and I couldn't be happier. Not to say that my recordings are 100% at fault, I'm sure it's a combo of recordings and headphone shortcomings. The HE-400 was even harsh when I was listening to some of
my Mapleshade recordings and those are anything but poorly recorded tracks.

Excellent points. In the end, it is whatever headphone permits you to escape to *your* nirvana. Which may or may not be the band Nirvana.
 
Hm.. I have not listened to them in a while. Maybe I should do a quick Audacity scan and listen with my HE-400 cans which will be a first.
 
So! I digress but I am old or at least nearly old.

 

 

[MrMateoHead]

  MrMateoHead have you ever used MusicScope? Thoughts, anyone? I was thinking of purchasing it, but sounds like you are obtaining the same inspection through Audacity? I have used audacity but not to identify clipping. Never thought of it, truthfully.
 
https://www.xivero.com/musicscope/

 
I haven't but the program looks like a geek's dream. I am sure it could teach one a little more about their music - but then again I still can't do anything about a bad recording! Kinda pricey but if they had a trial I would give it a whirl.
 

 
Why do you poo poo the idea that the HE-400 has a treble spike and then recommend EQ to reduce said treble spike? 

How much the treble spike bothers you is certainly a personal matter (I would recommend a cut more in the ballpark of 12 dB...), but I don't see the point in trying to deny that they HE-400 has a treble spike. It's a bright headphone. 

 
I don't think you read me correctly - I wasn't poo pooing anything and certainly wasn't trying to make a positive/negative judgement, just an honest one. It seems more or less established by the 1000+page thread that changing ear pads and EQ'ing work well to improve the "subjective" experience of the HE-400s. Obviously the purists can't be bothered to play around with a product that isn't 100% perfect out of the box. And obviously some people prefer lately to talk about how much better their "other" headphones are relative to the HE-400.

But at least some people saw them as an awesome value a couple years ago (and I trust those opinions and would still largely agree probably).
 
It is also well quite established and obvious that some people call the treble "spiked" as a reflection of measured frequency response. I wasn't denying that one bit or pooing on it. I agree that the sound is on the "bright" side, but I don't usually attach words like "harsh", "sibilant" or "unnatural" to that. I tend to think the midrange/treble of the HE-400 are actually quite nice and only occasionally find them a little too hot. I have used them on and off EQ and but generally prefer EQ because yes, the spike can pull the cymbals too far forward for my liking. But I'd rather be cutting frequencies than wishing they were there when they clearly aren't. I think the main point was that Harmon might have a better understanding of "neutral" response at this point, and the HE-400s (like many other headphones), certainly ain't neutral. When I can get a deal on some NAD's or Focals I might give them a try, but I don't like the tiny earpads and durability problems suggested by their threads.
 
A 12 dB(!) cut? That would be pretty extreme IMO.

 

[jimjims]

 
Hi JimJim -
 
For less than $400 you have access to a range of very, very good Headphones, from the HE-400s to popular Sennheisers etc.
 
But here are a few facts -
 
1) You probably "prefer" a certain sound already, and don't know it.
2) The best way to explore your own preferences is to demo as many headphones as you can
3) The second best way to explore headphones is to demo as many as you can
4) Frequency response curves (like those from headphone.com or Innerfidelity.com), are based on "raw data" that has been "transformed" by what is believed to be the way that people actually perceive sound.
5) Presently, companies like Harmon International are revising that compensation curve to reflect what is objectively a "flat response" as well as what is objectively considered an "ideal" or "preferable" response. The way they are doing this is with trained/untrained listeners and it is a welcome change. An end result appears to have been some new products (the NAD HP50, Focal Spirit Classic/Professional, PSB M4Us I believe) notable for their "neutral" (i.e. "flat") frequency response and overall awesome sound (closer to "good good speakers in a good room"). I haven't gotten my hands on any of those, but my interest is high - I tend to like flatter-sounding speakers.
The point is, frequency response curves in the headphone space will never tell the whole story. Especially at the moment! So, when someone talks about "treble spikes" or "recessed mids", they are typically responding to the information as presented in current frequency response plots, which in any case is based on now out-of-date response curves. Others will claim it is based on their deep subjective knowledge, but as it is subjective, it may not apply to you.
6) You probably shouldn't buy on frequency response curves alone (hence this forum can be helpful to get the users' opinions)
7) The HE-400 sound their best on a good amp, if you don't want to get an amp, buy something else! (Many, many headphones work fine without one).
8) The HE-400 are not "flat" headphones, and were not impressive to many people on a FIRST listen. They get better with time. They get better on velour or modded pads, and with a slight treble cut (3 dB around 8-11 kHz).
9) "recessed mids" refers to the "upper" mids which is really part of the "treble" area if you break down the bass/mid/treble frequencies a bit differently (anything over say 3 khz is really getting into the treble IMO as I think of midrange as capturing most of the human voice). The HE-400s actually have a great midrange IMHO, and my more "mid forward" HD595s do not satisfy me THAT much more in that area (and in fact can be a tad "hot"). In any case, the HD595s got nothing on the HE-400s bass (which is both more extended and more textured).
10) Your favorite music will dictate, to an extent, your satisfaction with any headphone. That booming bass, or "sparkling" treble may be distracting if you love genres like classical or jazz. If you are an "everything" person like me, gravitate toward headphones that are primarily neutral. That will tend to sound good despite the variety of "distorted" or "high resolution" recordings out there. The HE-400s are somewhat "neutral" to my ears as they are amazing for jazz, and good for classical. They falter somewhat in "revealing" the clipping and popping and static of screwed up modern pop recordings (particularly when the vocals are too "hot", e.g. most female pop recordings I've heard).
 
All that said, if you are new to the hobby, I recommend spending a lot less. I went from $50 to $100 to $250 headphones before spending $400(!) on the HE-400s. There are many excellent products from reputable manufacturers in the $200 to $300 dollar range and I am sure they will produce 90% of the sound you might be looking for. I honestly started getting "buyers remorse" after getting into the $400 range. That is just a lot of dough for what is not necessarily the "end all be all" in sound and I started definitely getting "diminishing returns" (improvement in sound not as great as rise in cost). Also, I was ultimately a bit let down a bit in the comfort/quality of parts with the HE-400. I would recommend them, but only if you really got a hankering for planar magnetic (of which they are the most affordable I know of). That is what happened to me!
This is a great hobby, but unless you absolutely CANNOT blast speakers where you are, I would enter it with caution as GOOD information is tough to find.

Wow! What a post, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to write it all out.
 
I definitely prefer a "crisp" sound. I love the snap of crisp drums and the twang of a string. Especially for rock. Clear voice is also really important overall. I enjoy bass, but its not a priority. Not exactly sure what that translates to in more standard terminology though.
 
I've only had the opportunity to try out my friend's AKG Q701s, and Sennheiser Momentum Over Ears at a store, but thats it as far as higher end headphones go so far. I'd love to try out more, but there aren't really many choices around here. That being  said,  both the AKGs and Senns sounded good, but I'd say I need more time to determine if I really like them or not.
 
I have no idea what the freq response graphs are trying to tell me yet, so I don't really put much value into them (yet). I feel they definitely don't tell the whole story though, since comfort and weight are a pretty big consideration as well.
 
 
I was bidding on some used HD600s and HE400s, which ended up in the low 200s (always sniped at the last second sadly). I feel at that price its almost impossible to say no as long as its in good condition.
 
I think I'll be getting the HE-400s or HD600/650, depending on which one I find the best deal on this upcoming month. All of them seem to fit with what I'm looking for, but we'll see once I get them!
 
Thanks again for your info!

 

[diamondears]

No need since the X2 plays my recordings beautifully

Besides...what if the music one wants to listen to doesn't come in uber high quality recordings? I'm not going to change my taste in music to suit my headphones. I'm changing my headphones to suit my music which is what I did and I couldn't be happier. Not to say that my recordings are 100% at fault, I'm sure it's a combo of recordings and headphone shortcomings. The HE-400 was even harsh when I was listening to some of
my Mapleshade recordings and those are anything but poorly recorded tracks.

Mapleshade recordings? Oh yeah? What specific type of recording/song/album sounded harsh wth the HE-400?

This is getting weird. X2 has better bass than HE-400 and now HE-400 sounds harsh in jazz music? I could understand with some vocals, since some vocal recordings (female) adds sibilance on the recordings due to the mic used (to extract more detail) and/or just plain "add-on" for the vocal mids to sound "textured"...but Jazz music? Cmon...

 

[money4me247]

Mapleshade recordings? Oh yeah? What specific type of recording/song/album sounded harsh wth the HE-400?

This is getting weird. X2 has better bass than HE-400

and now HE-400 sounds harsh in jazz music? I could understand with some vocals, since some vocal recordings (female) adds sibilance on the recordings due to the mic used (to extract more detail) and/or just plain "add-on" for the vocal mids to sound "textured"...but Jazz music? Cmon...

 
traditionally, the hd650 and he-400 is highly recommended for jazz & I personally think that they both work well with that particular genre. i would recommend checking out this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared-update-audeze-lcd-2-revision-2-6-4-13#user_HE400

 

[manbear]

I don't think you read me correctly - I wasn't poo pooing anything and certainly wasn't trying to make a positive/negative judgement, just an honest one. It seems more or less established by the 1000+page thread that changing ear pads and EQ'ing work well to improve the "subjective" experience of the HE-400s. Obviously the purists can't be bothered to play around with a product that isn't 100% perfect out of the box. And obviously some people prefer lately to talk about how much better their "other" headphones are relative to the HE-400. But at least some people saw them as an awesome value a couple years ago (and I trust those opinions and would still largely agree probably).

It is also well quite established and obvious that some people call the treble "spiked" as a reflection of measured frequency response. I wasn't denying that one bit or pooing on it. I agree that the sound is on the "bright" side, but I don't usually attach words like "harsh", "sibilant" or "unnatural" to that. I tend to think the midrange/treble of the HE-400 are actually quite nice and only occasionally find them a little too hot. I have used them on and off EQ and but generally prefer EQ because yes, the spike can pull the cymbals too far forward for my liking. But I'd rather be cutting frequencies than wishing they were there when they clearly aren't. I think the main point was that Harmon might have a better understanding of "neutral" response at this point, and the HE-400s (like many other headphones), certainly ain't neutral. When I can get a deal on some NAD's or Focals I might give them a try, but I don't like the tiny earpads and durability problems suggested by their threads.

A 12 dB(!) cut? That would be pretty extreme IMO.

I certainly would encourage potential buyers not to be scared away by pad mods, harsh treble, EQ, etc.

It just sounds to me like you're trying to discredit the existence of a treble spike by saying this observation is based on a flawed frequency response curve. It's not. For one thing, the new Harman curve says that "neutral" has less treble than we thought before--an HE-400 graph compensated with the new curve would show an even larger spike. More importantly though, the treble spike is clearly audible without any graphs at all.

 

[indieroll]

I wish someone could custom make a 2.5mm adapter for the connectors. My canare cable and OCC cable both have issues with the connectors.

 

[ArmAndHammer]

Mapleshade recordings? Oh yeah? What specific type of recording/song/album sounded harsh wth the HE-400?

This is getting weird. X2 has better bass than HE-400

and now HE-400 sounds harsh in jazz music? I could understand with some vocals, since some vocal recordings (female) adds sibilance on the recordings due to the mic used (to extract more detail) and/or just plain "add-on" for the vocal mids to sound "textured"...but Jazz music? Cmon...

Frankly I don't give a schiit what you think. It is what it is. But if you need to know....
 
13 Shade of Blue, CD, Bad Feelings, Black Betty, Going to Chicago, Jimmy Jazz are a few that I thought were harsh to my ears through the HE-400. Don't like it...oh well, deal with it.

 

[MrMateoHead]

I certainly would encourage potential buyers not to be scared away by pad mods, harsh treble, EQ, etc.

It just sounds to me like you're trying to discredit the existence of a treble spike by saying this observation is based on a flawed frequency response curve. It's not. For one thing, the new Harman curve says that "neutral" has less treble than we thought before--an HE-400 graph compensated with the new curve would show an even larger spike. More importantly though, the treble spike is clearly audible without any graphs at all.

 
Manbear, one more time for clarity's sake. Certainly, I am all for modding and EQ'ing ect. But when I was a "noob" I just wanted to be pointed to good quality stuff that sounded good and required no further monetary or personal investments. It is OK to support it both ways (and I do).
 
As for freq response discussions, it depends on whose measurements you take as accurate. The "clearly audible" treble spike you refer to made me smile - clearly, that is a subjective observation that not everyone would make/notice/care about/draw on a graph. Most recently I was NOT using EQ until I listened to some Thom Yorke. The beat had some high frequency stuff that sounded clearly out of balance and was clearly hitting the peak frequencies. Otherwise, the treble wasn't bothering me at all on virtually everything else. Also, I put on the ole' modded pleathers. Radical bass response, but more vocal sibilance. Sigh. Always SO close with these headphones.
 
Back to measurements. Headphone.com makes the HE-400s look scooped out and peaky as S*** (select 15 dB of range to really illustrate it). That is not really what I hear.
 
If you go to innerfidelity, the result is a peak at 1 kHz, with a second slightly lesser peak at about 9 kHz. The measured distortion doesn't look that good through much of the midrange, however (swinging between the 1%-10% range). No surprise there, as we all know these things do some ringing. Basically, the HE-400 looks bad on headphone.com and kind of "shelved" from innerfidelity. Innerfidelity looks a lot more like what I think I "hear" the HE-400s. Shelved bass, prominent midrange, "JBL" treble (darker yet energetic). Certainly a good, but not smooth response.
 
If you take the Focal Spirit Pros as the benchmark, then it is clear that raw response should have elevated bass response, a peak at 3.5 kHz and a second lesser peak at 10-12 kHz. There is no question that, just looking at the graph, you would think the Focals also have a "treble peak" as the end result. Yet this is supposedly more neutral given the interaction of headphone/ear and natural perception of sound (which gets worse at bass and treble extremes). But we know that neutrality is really about balance of frequency and tone. The new HE400i seems to come closer to conforming to the "Focal"/Harmon standard, but doesn't seem to have the downward tilt needed for better balance. I would assume that they would come off like the HE-400s as a bit heavy on the midrange/treble despite excellent bass extension.
 
In any case I am discussing, not arguing. I would like to see the new correction applied to old headphone models. But I think the main problem with the HE-400 would be in the 1 - 3.5 kHz area, not the 10kHz area. The lack of an elevated bass response also prevents it from having the downward facing tilt. But who cares really? I still love the way they sound MOST of the time. It is comfort / fatigue that prevents me from throwing away my Senns / home stereo.

 

[MrMateoHead]

  I was bidding on some used HD600s and HE400s, which ended up in the low 200s (always sniped at the last second sadly). I feel at that price its almost impossible to say no as long as its in good condition.
 
I think I'll be getting the HE-400s or HD600/650, depending on which one I find the best deal on this upcoming month. All of them seem to fit with what I'm looking for, but we'll see once I get them!
 
Thanks again for your info!

If you can get a great deal - go for it.

 
Way back when in this thread, people were saying that having HD600s and HE-400s was having the best of all worlds - a tamer, more balanced phone for some occasions and the HE-400s for all others!
 
Personally, I like all my Senns but haven't "loved them". I like a little more treble energy for the rock n' roll and so on. Most of my Senns always sounded too polite - they weren't as fun to crank up.

 

[MrMateoHead]

  Frankly I don't give a schiit what you think. It is what it is. But if you need to know....
 
13 Shade of Blue, CD, Bad Feelings, Black Betty, Going to Chicago, Jimmy Jazz are a few that I thought were harsh to my ears through the HE-400. Don't like it...oh well, deal with it.

The one thing I was 100% sure of when I first listened to the HE-400s is that they were AWESOME with jazz music . . . .
 
But anyway how bout dem' DMB songs you didn't like through the HE-400s? I still wanted to check it out to see if I could find the trouble spots!

 

[Koolpep]

BLOODY HELL.

Just connected my new balanced super duper Plussoundaudio cable to my 400 and running it with the Gloveaudio A1 am so in love with my music listening to everything again and again and grinning like an imbecile. I liked my 400 but now I know what this baby can do. Awesome. So much more than I hope for.

Was very scepticAl about balanced but boy does it make a difference.