HiBy Digital M300 Android Digital Audio Player,"The Gen-Z Music Player" - Discussion thread
Nov 8, 2023 at 6:35 PM Post #16 of 638
Oh, and I tried playing some DSD on the M300 but on the Hiby app through the jack, it doesn't seem to bypass android and reads it as PCM. Hoping that there's a way to have an exclusive mode through the jack

M300
1699486481622.png


R6 III
1699486505073.png
 
Nov 9, 2023 at 8:23 AM Post #17 of 638
Oh, and I tried playing some DSD on the M300 but on the Hiby app through the jack, it doesn't seem to bypass android and reads it as PCM. Hoping that there's a way to have an exclusive mode through the jack
Did you have the jack connected to headphones?
 
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Nov 9, 2023 at 9:12 AM Post #19 of 638
Interesting thing I noticed on the M300 is the two different volume controls for your music

1699539024349.png


There's one Master Volume which controls all the sound and one Media Volume which controls the music/content you're listening to. When first playing around with the volume settings (especially on loudspeaker mode) I noticed that the volume was lower than I anticipated and thought that that was the extent of the volume. But upon checking the volume settings (which can be found by changing the volume and pressing the 3 dots or going into the settings itself and looking for sound & vibration) and upping media volume, it was almost like I unlocked the high gain of the M300. A bit weird of a setting to separate, but I guess it does have its reason for being there in regards to regulating music and other sounds
 
Nov 9, 2023 at 10:56 AM Post #20 of 638
Yes, I did.
I am awaiting further details of the implementation on the M300. What I heard from the boss so far: "it does not bypass SRC but neither is it the terrible default SRC implementation". SRC: sample rate conversion.

I believe whatever is being done here, will be done for the purpose of maximizing compatibility and minimizing hassle, for HiBy Digital's target user group which would prioritize user-friendliness higher and also use more apps that may run afoul of the previous DTA (Direct Transport Audio) implementation (e.g. online radio, learning resources, and dare I say games)
 
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Nov 9, 2023 at 11:12 AM Post #21 of 638
I am awaiting further details of the implementation on the M300. What I heard from the boss so far: "it does not bypass SRC but neither is it the terrible default SRC implementation". SRC: sample rate conversion.

I believe whatever is being done here, will be done for the purpose of maximizing compatibility and minimizing hassle, for HiBy Digital's target user group which would prioritize user-friendliness higher and also use more apps that may run foul of the previous DTA (Direct Transport Audio) implementation (e.g. online radio, learning resources, and dare I say games)
I can definitely see that it not bypassing SRC makes sense with the use case of this. It'll probably cause problems when normal users use other apps with sounds. At least SRC Bypass still works on USB Exclusive mode.

I definitely need to try it with games, let's hope the 3gb ram is more than enough for modern lightweight stuff or maybe even rhythm games LOL
 
Nov 9, 2023 at 3:57 PM Post #22 of 638
I am awaiting further details of the implementation on the M300. What I heard from the boss so far: "it does not bypass SRC but neither is it the terrible default SRC implementation". SRC: sample rate conversion.

I believe whatever is being done here, will be done for the purpose of maximizing compatibility and minimizing hassle, for HiBy Digital's target user group which would prioritize user-friendliness higher and also use more apps that may run afoul of the previous DTA (Direct Transport Audio) implementation (e.g. online radio, learning resources, and dare I say games)
Agh! I should have known when it was called the "Gen Z music player". Being a crusty old man, silly concerns over bitperfect playback is all I have.
 
Nov 9, 2023 at 4:10 PM Post #23 of 638
“Gen Z music player”

1417362C-CC92-4267-8287-5C598D05F4A6.gif


So I guess for similar money, either you have the R3 II with 4.4 and fancier audio circuitry or this one with Android and streaming?
 
Nov 10, 2023 at 1:38 AM Post #24 of 638
HBB Graphs the HiBy Digital XOE

1699598221049.png



I was planning to write about the XOE after having it graphed by a friend, but I guess this graph shows most of my thoughts about it which is that it sounds like the earphones that come bundled with smartphones which is to say it's not good but not bad either.

I will say though, microphonics is a big issue with this thing lol
 
Nov 12, 2023 at 5:06 AM Post #25 of 638
I was correct in guessing that the M300 is doing SRC (sample rate conversion) to maximize app compatibility. Our technical lead / president, Fanoble Meng, offers the following exposition of the situation on Weibo https://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404966597658804641 which I summarize here, with my own extra notes in square brackets:

It is less important whether SRC is involved [for example, any oversampling + antialiasing DAC is technically performing the same thing as SRC, to *improve* audio performance], than what quality SRC is involved, in case it is involved.

[Since there are few sounds in this exposition, first let's establish what is being examined by the pictures used for illustration. They are linear tone sweeps, the x-axis represents time and the y-axis represents frequency. Bright colours on the black background indicate points in time-frequency where signals are input. This is what the input looks like (spanning different frequency ranges in each case):]

1699781216000.png

^ A single diagonal line represents a linear frequency sweep.

Frequency sweeps are used for illustration both because the effects of degradation from SRC are more easily visualized, and also because they are actually better heard in a frequency sweep, than any music source. Don't believe me, you can try it yourself (pm me if you need assistance).

This is what bad SRC can look like:
1699781344833.png


[Here's an example of a linear sweep generated at 352.8kHz sample rate being resampled to 48kHz, at lowest and then highest quality in Audacity:]
1699781870647.png

[You can download the sound sample here to hear what this sounds like. Upper trace is left channel, lower trace right:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/znva...ast.flac?rlkey=yjzqbi75or3wvyy9m2ark5waz&dl=0

And to further reinforce the point about hearing this more easily in sine sweeps than music, here's a piece of music from the former 2L test bench with full spectral content, the original at 352.8kHz SR, one resampled to 48kHz SR using the nasty resampler and one resampled to 48kHz SR using the great resampler:
https://mega.nz/file/4d4R1azR#_kJfOhfFURYMqGnnPDXsY0u-1pAOk32gs5-f6RCbYLQ --original DXD 352.8kHz SR file formerly available at the 2L test bench
https://mega.nz/file/IJ4GRQxa#FR1yOu6vRnRTFVyMs5wVZTYi38e8--wie6X-qhVKSV8 --resampled to 48kHz at lowest quality shown above
https://mega.nz/file/1dZDXBCC#oIcJ630cbGA-4unPnD8_S7Ok7xYuC_3D_A464FiqzBc --resampled to 48kHz at maximum quality shown above (this actually compresses into a smaller FLAC file; do not be confused by this)
]

So, here's some test sweeps done on some contemporary smartphones, which have come a long way since early Android: (note that the max frequency represented by any particular sweep is the Nyquist frequency, which is 1/2 the sample rate. Ideally you should e.g. see a diagonal line reaching up to 22050Hz for 44.1kHz SR and 96000Hz (off the charts here) for 192kHz SR:
1699780265360.png

^Sweep response of the Sony Xperia 1V

1699780299426.png

^Sweep response of the iQOO Z1.

Some observations:

1. all sample rates are converted to 48kHz output. The output frequency response does not exceed 24kHz, which does not comply with Hi-Res audio requirements.
2. 44.1 and 48kHz audio are both output perfectly (despite 44.1kHz being resampled to 48kHz). [This was not the case with earlier Android devices]
3. there are problems with 88.2kHz input and above in that it is bandlimited to 24kHz, and there is also some aliasing foldup / foldback when the tone sweep approaches / exceeds 24kHz. The higher the sample rate input, the more apparent the foldback.

For point 3, since the foldback goes down to anywhere between 21kHz (for 88.2kHz input) and 17kHz (for some of the higher SR inputs), this foldback should be considered audible distortion.
Now:
1699780317684.png

^Sweep response of the HiBy M300 (note that the frequency axis goes up to 96000 instead of 30000Hz)

Some observations:
1. The played back bandwidth is up to 90kHz, very close to the theoretical maximum of a 192kHz audio file. The difference is accounted for by the need for a good antialiasing filter. 90kHz well exceeds the requirements laid out for Hi-Res audio by the Japan Audio Society and the Consumer Electronics Society as the basis of issuing the Hi-Res Audio badge.
2. At 352.8kHz SR input and over, there exists some foldup / foldback aliasing of the sound, which however never goes down beyond 70kHz and is inaudible.

To summarize:

1. Current Android systems' built-in SRC has improved to the point of no detectable degradation of 44.1 and 48kHz audio.
2. However, the smartphones we tested are limited to 48kHz sample rate (24kHz bandwidth) which is not Hi-Res.
3. The M300 does have SRC but this does not affect the audio output except at high ultrasonic frequencies.

Some additional notes:
1. The M300 currently still has a small bug which limits bandwidth to 24kHz (as opposed to 90kHz) unless touch panel feedback sounds are disabled. We will fix this in a coming firmware update.
2. Using HiBy Music, you can output at 32 bit floating point for the highest fidelilty.
3. The audio specifications of the M300 (THD, etc.), as measured on an Audio Precision analyzer, already take SRC into account. As you can see, the specs remain highly competitive, not affected by SRC. [And, as you will have found out from the audio samples above, this is not something that will escape measurements and somehow crop up in music listening; quite the opposite.]
 
Last edited:
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Nov 12, 2023 at 6:47 AM Post #26 of 638
I was correct in guessing that the M300 is doing SRC (sample rate conversion) to maximize app compatibility. Our technical lead / president, Fanoble Meng, offers the following exposition of the situation on Weibo https://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404966597658804641 which I summarize here, with my own extra notes in square brackets:

It is less important whether SRC is involved [for example, any oversampling + antialiasing DAC is technically performing the same thing as SRC, to *improve* audio performance], than what quality SRC is involved, in case it is involved.

[Since there are few sounds in this exposition, first let's establish what is being examined by the pictures used for illustration. They are linear tone sweeps, the x-axis represents time and the y-axis represents frequency. Bright colours on the black background indicate points in time-frequency where signals are input. This is what the input looks like (spanning different frequency ranges in each case):]

1699781216000.png
^ A single diagonal line represents a linear frequency sweep.

Frequency sweeps are used for illustration both because the effects of degradation from SRC are more easily visualized, and also because they are actually better heard in a frequency sweep, than any music source. Don't believe me, you can try it yourself (pm me if you need assistance).

This is what bad SRC can look like:
1699781344833.png

[Here's an example of a linear sweep generated at 352.8kHz sample rate being resampled to 48kHz, at lowest and then highest quality in Audacity:]
1699781870647.png
[You can download the sound sample here to hear what this sounds like. Upper trace is left channel, lower trace right:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/znva...ast.flac?rlkey=yjzqbi75or3wvyy9m2ark5waz&dl=0

And to further reinforce the point about hearing this more easily in sine sweeps than music, here's a piece of music from the former 2L test bench with full spectral content, the original at 352.8kHz SR, one resampled to 48kHz SR using the nasty resampler and one resampled to 48kHz SR using the great resampler:
https://mega.nz/file/4d4R1azR#_kJfOhfFURYMqGnnPDXsY0u-1pAOk32gs5-f6RCbYLQ --original DXD 352.8kHz SR file formerly available at the 2L test bench
https://mega.nz/file/IJ4GRQxa#FR1yOu6vRnRTFVyMs5wVZTYi38e8--wie6X-qhVKSV8 --resampled to 48kHz at lowest quality shown above
https://mega.nz/file/1dZDXBCC#oIcJ630cbGA-4unPnD8_S7Ok7xYuC_3D_A464FiqzBc --resampled to 48kHz at maximum quality shown above (this actually compresses into a smaller FLAC file; do not be confused by this)
]

So, here's some test sweeps done on some contemporary smartphones, which have come a long way since early Android: (note that the max frequency represented by any particular sweep is the Nyquist frequency, which is 1/2 the sample rate. Ideally you should e.g. see a diagonal line reaching up to 22050Hz for 44.1kHz SR and 96000Hz (off the charts here) for 192kHz SR:
1699780265360.png
^Sweep response of the Sony Xperia 1V

1699780299426.png
^Sweep response of the iQOO Z1.

Some observations:

1. all sample rates are converted to 48kHz output. The output frequency response does not exceed 24kHz, which does not comply with Hi-Res audio requirements.
2. 44.1 and 48kHz audio are both output perfectly (despite 44.1kHz being resampled to 48kHz). [This was not the case with earlier Android devices]
3. there are problems with 88.2kHz input and above in that it is bandlimited to 24kHz, and there is also some aliasing foldup / foldback when the tone sweep approaches / exceeds 24kHz. The higher the sample rate input, the more apparent the foldback.

For point 3, since the foldback goes down to anywhere between 21kHz (for 88.2kHz input) and 17kHz (for some of the higher SR inputs), this foldback should be considered audible distortion.
Now:
1699780317684.png
^Sweep response of the HiBy M300 (note that the frequency axis goes up to 96000 instead of 30000Hz)

Some observations:
1. The played back bandwidth is up to 90kHz, very close to the theoretical maximum of a 192kHz audio file. The difference is accounted for by the need for a good antialiasing filter. 90kHz well exceeds the requirements laid out for Hi-Res audio by the Japan Audio Society and the Consumer Electronics Society as the basis of issuing the Hi-Res Audio badge.
2. At 352.8kHz SR input and over, there exists some foldup / foldback aliasing of the sound, which however never goes down beyond 70kHz and is inaudible.

To summarize:

1. Current Android systems' built-in SRC has improved to the point of no detectable degradation of 44.1 and 48kHz audio.
2. However, the smartphones we tested are limited to 48kHz sample rate (24kHz bandwidth) which is not Hi-Res.
3. The M300 does have SRC but this does not affect the audio output except at high ultrasonic frequencies.

Some additional notes:
1. The M300 currently still has a small bug which limits bandwidth to 24kHz (as opposed to 90kHz) unless touch panel feedback sounds are disabled. We will fix this in a coming firmware update.
2. Using HiBy Music, you can output at 32 bit floating point for the highest fidelilty.
3. The audio specifications of the M300 (THD, etc.), as measured on an Audio Precision analyzer, already take SRC into account. As you can see, the specs remain highly competitive, not affected by SRC. [And, as you will have found out from the audio samples above, this is not something that will escape measurements and somehow crop up in music listening; quite the opposite.]
I'm sure Gen Z will love all of this.
 
Nov 12, 2023 at 6:57 AM Post #27 of 638
I'm sure Gen Z will love all of this.
They'll more likely just love that launching Radio BBC, Sudoku and Solitaire won't cause the music app they're using at the same time to crap out (to use examples I've come across from supporting the R Android devices here on head-fi)
 
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Nov 13, 2023 at 4:08 AM Post #29 of 638
So Hiby R5 I should stick with as it will sound better? And I would only gain better app compatibility with a m300.
I mean, sample rate conversion is quite beside the point that R5 gen 1 and 2 are both positioned higher than the M300 with more premium parts included for a higher price?
 
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Nov 13, 2023 at 4:08 AM Post #30 of 638
They'll more likely just love that launching Radio BBC, Sudoku and Solitaire won't cause the music app they're using at the same time to crap out (to use examples I've come across from supporting the R Android devices here on head-fi)

Yep I'm definitely playing Sodoku and Soilatire on the M300 for sure mhmm :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes::stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes::stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

1699866466243.png
 

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