[Perfectionist]

Hi,

Heres a question, since everyone here is convinced that I NEED a deicated amp for my HD580's.

If I NEED one so much why does the standard headphone output in my integrated Marantz amp become TO loud before I reach the 9oClock position on the volume knob ? If they are so hard to drive explain why I would need an amp ? The whole idea of an amp is to easily "drive" a pair of speakers or headphones, characteristics (type of sound, smooth, fast etc) are a mere side issue. Well my amp IS driving them EASILY, so why would an amp help me ?

THAT is why I don't believe in dedicated amps, for who ever asked me why....

Rgds, Rick

 

[eeyssjr]

"Well my amp IS driving them EASILY"

How do you know that. Because it goes lous with your headphones?

No, you have missed the point of not only headphone amplifiers, but all hi-fi amplifiers.

It could be that when demands are made upon you marantz headphone socket, it struggles to deliver transient peaks - it gets there, but it takes time. so the sound is slow, unresponsive.

That is just one small example of what a good amplier can provide. In reality they do so much more than that.

With amplifiers designed to drive speakers, some of the best valve amplifiers have just 15 watts power. They are held in the same league as 1KW Krells believe me.

The answer is that loudness in hi-fi isnt really an indication of anything. It just means that the amp can deliver power.

What really matters is how fast it delivers that power, its frequency response, the list goes on. Power is nothing without control. A bad amp has no control - and the music sounds worse for it.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

How can you possibly have that username and still ask this question? Does anyone else find this ironic?

A true perfectionist would never settle for "good enough" when it comes to the sound derived from their headphones.

There are two possible explanations for what you're hearing.

1. Your Marantz receiver has an exceptionally good headphone jack.

2. You simply haven't heard how much better your HD580s sound from a dedicated headphone amp.

3. Some combination of #s 1 and 2. It's possible that any benefit you would derive from a dedicated headphone amp would be subtle, if your Marantz has an exceptionally good headphone amp.

You won't get a big argument from me. I've been very happy with the performance of my Onkyo Integra 606 CD player's headphone jack. I do have a dedicated headphone amp (CHA 47 in an Altoids tin) for when I'm away from the 606.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

The headphone jack on my integrated amp also drives my phones to good volume at ~10 o'clock but there's a high-pitched whine that sets in when I turn slightly beyond that. I don't get anything like that on my Porta Corda amp even when I turn it up to max.

Whether you 'need' a headphone amp depends on whether you're satisfied with the sound quality from your current setup, of course. If you find flaws in your current music presentation, according to general consensus, chances are getting a dedicated amp would win you the biggest improvement at the moment.

Of course there are brands like NAD that include a great headphone amp circuit in their integrated amps, but there are (so I hear

) many integrated amps that just put a big resistor on the main loudspeaker amp circuit and call that the headphone out. The potential disadvantages of that include

- higher frequencies are damped more than lower frequencies by resistors, so you get an altered frequency response biased towards bass
- headphones supposedly need a different 'kind' of amplification from loudspeakers--I'm trying to figure out what that means myself.

Hm, and yeah, it's imperfect, Mr. Perfectionist!

 

[Tomcat]

Why do you need a dedicated headphone amp? Hmm, so the shortcomings of the HD 580 won't be quite as distracting as they are now? I guess I have said it in your previous post: you might be better served with a different headphone. I'm on your side!

 

[Perfectionist]

I am unsure how asking questions to increase my knowledge makes me an imperfectionist ? I am also unsure how I have made a point that I am totally happy (good enough ?), or unhappy with my current sound ? Perhaps certain people need to read posts properly ?

I am also still unsure of any points here, ignoring transients etc for a moment, my amp is driving the phones with ease obviously, they are to loud at 9oClock, that means the amp isn't even trying....please clarify

 

[dhwilkin]

Technically, you don't need an amp. Technically, you don't need any audio equipment at all.

As to why you might want to try an amp... I started out listening to my 580s through the headphone jack on my Videologic Sirocco Crossfire amplifier. Sounded boring, hazy, and fatiguing. Adding a modded MSB Link DAC did little to help the sound. Then I tried a MG Head tube amp. I got a very nice improvement in the sound, in that it became involving, had better macrodynamics, and was much less fatiguing. Then I decided to get a Headroom Max. Again, big jump in sound quality, as it became much easier to hear into the music, thanks to the lowered noise floor, and better control over the frequency extremes. And you know what? That Crossfire amp could drive the 580s to deafening levels, so quantity of volume was never an issue. Quality, however, was.
Quote:

Tomcat said... Why do you need a dedicated headphone amp? Hmm, so the shortcomings of the HD 580 won't be quite as distracting as they are now? I guess I have said it in your previous post: you might be better served with a different headphone. I'm on your side!

Maybe, maybe not, but that's not really the point of this thread.

 

[Perfectionist]

dhwilkin,

Some very good points, and yes I was a little hasty

I understand that an amp will give me better quality, just a little miffed at people constantly presuming that everyone NEEDS an amp when to be honest I have powered my HD580's from a walkman, not great quality but plenty loud enough. I sound like a real "HyperBass" customer here, quality IS more important than quantity yes, all I am trying to itterate is that to get the 580's to sing (a little at least) you DO NOT need a dedicated amp

Regards

 

[r3cc0s]

well I would agree with you with perhaps

um... sony mdr-cd3000, or grado's

because they are very easy to drive and produce good quality sound from low power inputs

but with the 580/600, they need good quality power to drive them to the potential that they can sound...

they are high end cans that need high end amps

kinda like those damned snotty rich hot women

I mean

yea

 

[morphsci]

Just to reiterate. It is not necessarily about how loud the phones go it is about the headroom available for peaks and for delivering good bass extension. No you do not need an amp. However, the Senn 580/600's respond very well to more and "cleaner" power. Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Now lighten up and listen to some music

 

[Voyager]

While you don't NEED a headphone amp to get the HD580s to go loud or sound good, without the amp there are many phones that will (IMO) sound better than the HD580s at the same or lower price. The real potential of the HD580s isn't nearly realized by portable equipment.

 

[Perfectionist]

OK then, so the general consensus (to the converted like me !!) is that an amp may in fact give me the sound I need. Which is smooth, and quite weighty, with a solid fast bass. Given that I am in the UK what amp would suit this spec for my 580's ?

Regards, Rick

 

[edog]

Quote:

Originally posted by Perfectionist I am also still unsure of any points here, ignoring transients etc for a moment, my amp is driving the phones with ease obviously, they are to loud at 9oClock, that means the amp isn't even trying....please clarify

The others have given you a more technical explanation, so I'll explain through analogy.

Suppose you were in the market for a good-performing sports car. You could decide to get a Ford Mustang that's been super-charged by some local neighborhood kids so that its engine can spit out 360 horsepower, and can out-accelerate 95% of the cars out there.

Alternatively, you could get a Porsche 911 Turbo. This also has 360 horsepower and great acceleration. However, the Porsche also probably has much nicer handling overall. Also, it has a higher level of prestige and luxury to it. (Its ability to attract members of the opposite gender are also a big plus.

)

So, while the horsepower (volume in your amp scenario) of both cars is more than adequate, the level of refinement (soundstaging, tightness of bass, etc.) differs dramatically between both cars. Furthermore, you wouldn't know how much the souped-up Mustang (Marantz amp) is lacking until you drove the Porsche (or headphone amp, in your case).

Who knows? Maybe your Marantz amp's headphone jack is really that good, but you'll never know until you try a good headphone amp.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Forget what I said back there then

I've just read your last thread and your complaints with the HD580s...

Problem is, Perfectionist, if you go to HeadRoom (www.headphone.com) and look at the frequency response of the headphones, you'll find that the HD580 has more bass and less harsh highs than most phones already. This means that

1. Your integrated amp may be driving them improperly (forget what I said about more bass and less treble from integrated amps with no separate headphone amp circuits, your amp may not be one of this kind; a *cheap* separate headphone amp circuit may give you not enough bass)

2. If you're getting the correct frequency response from your integrated amp (ie. you're getting the amount of bass that you should be getting from them) and you still want more bass out of a pair of earphones, you would not be looking for accurate reproduction of music

Look at the frequency response. (not 'smoothed normalized frequency response') of HD580s (www.headphone.com->Product Stuff->Headphones->Sennheiser HD580->FREQUENCY RESPONSE) You'll see that the lines are higher on the left than on the right, with peaks at ~100Hz, corresponding to a midbass region. This means that the HD580 already have something of a Mega Bass button built into it (nothing really that over-the-top of course) compared to an ideal reproduction of the music. The lines going down to the right means that the HD580s' treble is already significantly toned down relative to an ideal reproduction of the sound.

All this is assuming you have *good amplification*. So if you find that the HD580s are not giving enough bass and harsh treble, and you don't have a dedicated amp, the two are likely to be connected.

On the other hand, like me, I *have* a dedicated amp (just a ~$160 Porta Corda, but it will do

) and still find that the bass is sometimes not enough and the treble too much. But I won't be looking for another can. Why? When I know the characteristics of this headphone, I know that it is my tastes at fault--residues of dum-bass syndrome

If I want more bass and less harsh treble, the HD580s is already catering to my preferences--asking for even more would be too much of a good thing

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Oops, took so long writing my reply, I missed out the part where Perfectionist became a convert

What you need in a headphone amp for the Senns.:

1. They have rather high impedance, (300ohms) so they require an amp with good voltage capability (and the current to back it up of course)

2. The drivers on the HD580s are designed to be damped by the voltage from the amp rather than air-damped, so you need an amp with tight control on the drivers--namely one with 0 Ohm resistance between output and drivers. (If your integrated amp is of the kind that puts a huge resistor between the speaker amp and the headphone output, this will be especially hurtful to the HD580s!)

I'll let someone else handle the recommendations