[Gradofan2]

Quote:

Gradofan2:You are so wrong about the sound of the HE-500. The HE-500 may sound dark on your Millet but it doesn't sound dark on the Schiit Lyr or other amps which have enough power to properly drive them. The bass definition and impact of the HE-500 with the proper amp can't be equaled by a dynamic headphone. I like my Grados and A/Ts a lot, but the HE-500 is a step up from all of them-again, when they are driven by the proper amp.

Well... the Lyr might make some difference... but... I doubt it can change the inherent sound of the phones.  Perhaps you didn't notice that I did have the EF5 to drive them, which is the amp HiFiMan recommends... not to mention... that they maintain they can be driven well by any headphone amp. 
 
And... all I can say about your other phones... is you apparently haven't heard them with well matched sources and amps.
 
May I suggest you read the Headphonia review.  
 
"thou doth protest too much, me thinks."
 

 

[francisdemarte]

This is just how this amp sounds, a bit on the slow, rich, romantic side.
 
This sound is actually what I like about this amp.
 
If you listen to faster music I would suggest going with a SS amp. My Lovely Cube (matrix m-stage/LBC clone) is the opposite of the EF5, faster and a tad leaner and the bass a bit tighter. I love the fact that I can swap between the two depending on my mood or music.
 

 

[dpump]

 
Quote:

 

Everything... the HE-500's and EF5 both have a thick, syrupy sound in the bass and lower mids.  The HE-500's a bit less so, with my Millett MiniMax, but still thick and syrupy.  They remind me a lot of the "old version" HD650's, except that the HE-500's have great highs, and are not particularly dark.
 
I don't know whether another amp (e.g. B22, etc.) and a lot more burn in would clear it up... but... I think I've reached my limit of patience... and... I'm not inclined to experiment a lot more with tubes and opamps... or... other amps for that matter. 
 
I think the HE-500's are for those who like a fairly warm, rich, thick sound - same for the EF5. 
 
I much prefer my "new version" HD580m's, AD2000's and RS-1's with my various set ups.  My impressions are very much like the HE-500 review on Headphonia, which found that the HD650's sound just as good with the right set up. 
 
 

dpump 
 
Gradofan2:You are so wrong about the sound of the HE-500. The HE-500 may sound dark on your Millet but it doesn't sound dark on the Schiit Lyr or other amps which have enough power to properly drive them. The bass definition and impact of the HE-500 with the proper amp can't be equaled by a dynamic headphone. I like my Grados and A/Ts a lot, but the HE-500 is a step up from all of them-again, when they are driven by the proper amp.

Well... the Lyr might make some difference... but... I doubt it can change the inherent sound of the phones.  Perhaps you didn't notice that I did have the EF5 to drive them, which is the amp HiFiMan recommends... not to mention... that they maintain they can be driven well by any headphone amp. 
 
And... all I can say about your other phones... is you apparently haven't heard them with well matched sources and amps.
 
May I suggest you read the Headphonia review.  
 
"thou doth protest too much, me thinks."
 

 
I grow weary of people on Head-Fi making misleading and ill informed statements. Yes, the EF5 has a somewhat dark sound-not thick and syrupy-just a little warm. That's why it sounds very good with the K-702. The EF5 is much better sounding than you state.
 
The HE-500 has no thick and syrupy sound at all when properly driven. Of course Head-Fi says the EF5 and any amp will drive the HE-500, they want to sell headphones. The EF5 does a decent job with the HE-500, but Head-Fi realizes a better amp is needed and is coming out with an EF6 amp soon. Not many amps can bring out the best in the HE-500 and I don't think you have heard them at their best.
 
You said you didn't know if a better amp would clear up the sound of the HE-500 and that the Lyr might make some difference. That tells me you haven't heard the HE-500 with the proper amp. Just because you grow weary of trying new tubes or opamps doesn't give you license to make inaccurate statements about anyone's products.
 
If you want to believe your dynamic phones are just as good as orthodynamics, that's your right. My opinion is exactly the opposite of yours. The difference is I'm not making blanket statements about products I don't have adequate experience with which may be misleading to others.
 
Read all the headphone and headphone amp reviews on 6Moons.com for a different perspective.
 
But let's not get into a verbal battle where each person thinks they are right and the other person is wrong. I just want those who read Head-Fi to get accurate and fair opinions, not opinions that read like statements of fact.
 

 

[Gradofan2]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dpump /img/forum/go_quote.gif

dpump 
 
Gradofan2:You are so wrong about the sound of the HE-500. The HE-500 may sound dark on your Millet but it doesn't sound dark on the Schiit Lyr or other amps which have enough power to properly drive them. The bass definition and impact of the HE-500 with the proper amp can't be equaled by a dynamic headphone. I like my Grados and A/Ts a lot, but the HE-500 is a step up from all of them-again, when they are driven by the proper amp.

Well... the Lyr might make some difference... but... I doubt it can change the inherent sound of the phones.  Perhaps you didn't notice that I did have the EF5 to drive them, which is the amp HiFiMan recommends... not to mention... that they maintain they can be driven well by any headphone amp. 
 
And... all I can say about your other phones... is you apparently haven't heard them with well matched sources and amps.
 
May I suggest you read the Headphonia review.  
 
"thou doth protest too much, me thinks."
 

 
I grow weary of people on Head-Fi making misleading and ill informed statements. Yes, the EF5 has a somewhat dark sound-not thick and syrupy-just a little warm. That's why it sounds very good with the K-702. The EF5 is much better sounding than you state.
 
The HE-500 has no thick and syrupy sound at all when properly driven. Of course Head-Fi says the EF5 and any amp will drive the HE-500, they want to sell headphones. The EF5 does a decent job with the HE-500, but Head-Fi realizes a better amp is needed and is coming out with an EF6 amp soon. Not many amps can bring out the best in the HE-500 and I don't think you have heard them at their best.
 
You said you didn't know if a better amp would clear up the sound of the HE-500 and that the Lyr might make some difference. That tells me you haven't heard the HE-500 with the proper amp. Just because you grow weary of trying new tubes or opamps doesn't give you license to make inaccurate statements about anyone's products.
 
If you want to believe your dynamic phones are just as good as orthodynamics, that's your right. My opinion is exactly the opposite of yours. The difference is I'm not making blanket statements about products I don't have adequate experience with which may be misleading to others.
 
Read all the headphone and headphone amp reviews on 6Moons.com for a different perspective.
 
But let's not get into a verbal battle where each person thinks they are right and the other person is wrong. I just want those who read Head-Fi to get accurate and fair opinions, not opinions that read like statements of fact.
 

Well... you're entitled to your opinion... but... it is not universal (see comments in the headphones forums, and the review on Headphonia, and even 6 Moons).  Unfortunately your statements do not reflect substantial experience with various phones and setups - which makes the entire difference.  Mine do and I have. 
 
I long ago disqualified the Lyr, because it does not mate well with other headphones (most all others) - which is the direct observation and advice of the Lyr founder.  While the HE-500's may perform better with the Lyr, HiFiMan represents they mate well with less powerful amps - which they do not (the opinion of many) - which after all is why I got them.   Like the Stax phones, I have no intention of dedicating an amp to just one set of phones.  And... the CE version of the EF5 (the current version) certainly does not clear them up - they still do not have the fast transients, and PRAT, of any of my other phones, nor the clarity in the bass and lower mids.  I'm not alone in this opinion. 
 
Now... from the mids on up they are great, and their soundstage and imaging are superb, and their highs are silky smooth.  But... their bass and lower mids are most definitely slower, and less sharp and clear than all my other phones (with their matching setups) - "thick and syrupy."
 
And... if you had more experience with my phones and well matched setups - you would understand that. 
 
So believe whatever you want... but... the many novice readers of Headfi should not be mislead by unequivocal statements of "fanboys" like you.  Which is precisely why I raised this issue, and the issue that Stax phones and setups sound very little better than phones and set ups like mine - to save a lot of folks the disappointment of learning these lessons themselves after making significant investments. 
 
Oh... and, by the way... Head-fi does not sell phones, amps, or other equipment - they merely create a forum for such.      

 
 

 

[dpump]

Gradofan2:
 
This is my last post here on this subject. I made a mistake-I meant to say that HifiMan says that any amp will drive the HE-500, not that Head-Fi said that. My fault.
 
IMHO, you are going even further off course. Now you are saying your dynamic phones sound almost as good as Stax phones? The top Stax phones have the best definition of any phones. The goal of high-fidelity is better sound, not sound that is almost as good. No one is saying your dynamic phones aren't good, just that there are other designs that are better. Is the difference worth it to everyone. No, but they shouldn't be told they are wasting their time because you think the difference isn't great enough.
 
I don't know why you are picking on the Lyr. The manufacturer states that it was designed primarily for inefficient phones like the HifiMan and Audeze. They advise against using it with low impedance phones like the A/Ts and Grados. They recommend the Asgard for low impedance phones. If you don't want to use the Lyr for its intended purpose, that's your choice. Read the Lyr thread and see how others feel about the amp when it is used with orthodynamics.
 
You keep trying to support your statements by saying that others have the same opinions as yours. Just as many have opposite opinions to yours. Many say that the Sennheiser 580/600/650 are dark and dull, that A/Ts are bright and lack bass, and that Grados are bright and/or boomy in the bass depending on the model and vintage.
 
As for my experience, I have been into audio for 40+ years. I have 16 pairs of phones, 13 headphone amps, and many transports and dacs. My experience is vast. I'm not a 'fanboy' of the HE-500. I know from my comparisons that the HE-500 is better than any of my dynamic phones when driven by the Lyr. Contrary to you not wanting to try tubes or opamps, I have tried many tubes in my Lyr as well as several dacs to tune the sound. I know the sound I now have with the Lyr and HE-500 is outstanding. If I want a different sound I can use my Grace 901 or Berning micro-ZOTL. All 3 amps sound different, but in no case is the bass 'warm and syrupy' as you state. Case closed. 

 

[captouch]

Tried a AD797AR module in place of the stock OP275 opamp.  I didn't think it was night and day by any means, but I'm going to go with the 797's for the time being.  I thought it had a bit more bass weight and generally sounded just a bit better in the detail area, but to my ears and with my short memory, it was fairly subtle.  The "glue" that was there under the OP275 was pretty soft and it came out without a lot of drama though the leads got bent a bit.
 
Turns out I had the newer version of the EF5 after all, so my stock tube is the Full Music.  Tried the Amperex Bugle Boy just now, which is what I have in there now, but again, not a night and day difference and I can't say which one I like better at this point.  Have one more tube to try (Amperex Voice of Music), but I suspect the difference may also be subtle to me at this point.
 
I'll probably have to get very familiar with the sound of certain tracks in a given configuration, then swap the tube and see if there's any noticeable difference.  It may just be that I don't have a great ear for subtleties or need a quick A/B to tell.
 
Anyway, it all sounds pretty good to me and I'm satisfied for now.  
 
I am, however, thinking next about a DAC. . .

 

[Gradofan2]

 
Quote:

Tried a AD797AR module in place of the stock OP275 opamp.  I didn't think it was night and day by any means, but I'm going to go with the 797's for the time being.  I thought it had a bit more bass weight and generally sounded just a bit better in the detail area, but to my ears and with my short memory, it was fairly subtle.  The "glue" that was there under the OP275 was pretty soft and it came out without a lot of drama though the leads got bent a bit.
 
Turns out I had the newer version of the EF5 after all, so my stock tube is the Full Music.  Tried the Amperex Bugle Boy just now, which is what I have in there now, but again, not a night and day difference and I can't say which one I like better at this point.  Have one more tube to try (Amperex Voice of Music), but I suspect the difference may also be subtle to me at this point.
 
I'll probably have to get very familiar with the sound of certain tracks in a given configuration, then swap the tube and see if there's any noticeable difference.  It may just be that I don't have a great ear for subtleties or need a quick A/B to tell.
 
Anyway, it all sounds pretty good to me and I'm satisfied for now.  
 
I am, however, thinking next about a DAC. . .

Thanks for the impressions - they tend to confirm my assumptions about the EF5... that rolling the opamps and tubes would not make a significant improvement in its sound.  I was thinking it's "overripe" sound was the result of the selected transistors and caps, and it's design in general. 
 
The AD797's have a bit cooler sound, with a bit more slam and pace, than the Burr Brown opamps - so, if you didn't notice a significant improvement in the sound that was more than "subtle" then my assumption was apparently correct.  If they were going to make a significant difference you would have quite easily heard it. 
 
So... I don't have any regrets about returning the amp, before I tried other opamps and tubes. 
 
 

 

[captouch]

 

Thanks for the impressions - they tend to confirm my assumptions about the EF5... that rolling the opamps and tubes would not make a significant improvement in its sound.  I was thinking it's "overripe" sound was the result of the selected transistors and caps, and it's design in general. 
 
The AD797's have a bit cooler sound, with a bit more slam and pace, than the Burr Brown opamps - so, if you didn't notice a significant improvement in the sound that was more than "subtle" then my assumption was apparently correct.  If they were going to make a significant difference you would have quite easily heard it. 
 
So... I don't have any regrets about returning the amp, before I tried other opamps and tubes. 
 
 

I may have tin ears as well. Or my methodology was flawed. I listened to two CD's and one SACD and listed my most notable impressions on 4 tracks per disc. Which means that I went roughly 30min between hearing the same track. That may be too long. My listening area doesn't have enough light to do the opamp swaps easily, so I power-down, disconnect, walk to kitchen, swap opamp carefully, and reconnect, power-up, etc.

I'll post impressions on tube-rolling later. I can swap tubes with less hassle and I'll limit my comparison tracks to just a few to shorten the time between listens of the same track.

By the fact that others have noticed significant changes via opamp and tube rolling makes me think what might be more apparent to others might be subtle to me.

 

[treal512]

Quote:

Tried a AD797AR module in place of the stock OP275 opamp.  I didn't think it was night and day by any means, but I'm going to go with the 797's for the time being.  I thought it had a bit more bass weight and generally sounded just a bit better in the detail area, but to my ears and with my short memory, it was fairly subtle.  The "glue" that was there under the OP275 was pretty soft and it came out without a lot of drama though the leads got bent a bit.
 
Turns out I had the newer version of the EF5 after all, so my stock tube is the Full Music.  Tried the Amperex Bugle Boy just now, which is what I have in there now, but again, not a night and day difference and I can't say which one I like better at this point.  Have one more tube to try (Amperex Voice of Music), but I suspect the difference may also be subtle to me at this point.
 
I'll probably have to get very familiar with the sound of certain tracks in a given configuration, then swap the tube and see if there's any noticeable difference.  It may just be that I don't have a great ear for subtleties or need a quick A/B to tell.
 
Anyway, it all sounds pretty good to me and I'm satisfied for now.  
 
I am, however, thinking next about a DAC. . .

If I may ask, what is the difference between the "newer" version EF5 and the older models? Details are welcomed.

 

[captouch]

Quote:

If I may ask, what is the difference between the "newer" version EF5 and the older models? Details are welcomed.

The newer version is CE-approved/certified and replaces the RCA clear-top tube with a Full Music tube.  Those are the only changes I'm aware of.

 

[DavidK35]

According to the Headfonia review of this amp, the AD797 is not a suitable choice:
 
 
For opamp rolling, it’s important to take note that the EF-5 supplies close to 34Volts to the opamps. I wasn’t aware of this when I started rolling opamps on the EF-5, and as a result, I fried an AD8066 opamp (too bad, it was a good combination with the Tung Sol Black Glass) which maxes at 24V. Another popular opamp like the AD797 are also out of the operating spec. The popular OPA627 opamp, however, is a good match with the EF5, and also highly recommended for an upgrade over the stock OP275 opamp for a more refined and higher resolution sound quality.
 
 
Quote:

Most of the varieties of 797's sound identical for audio use, as we utilize only a small portion of the bandwidth that the opamp can process.  Most of the times, the various version have different temperature ratings under which they can deliver their full performance as specified in the manufacturer's datasheet.  
 
Also, you might notice when checking the datasheet that the AD797 is available in both DIP and SOIC configurations.  Neither are "plug and play" for this amp as it has only a single DIP socket designed for dual-channel opamps.   You will need to either make up or have someone make up for you a 2 to 1 adapter.  I would suggest an adapter with 2 dip sockets, then you would be able to swap different single-channel opamps without the need for additional soldering or additional adapters.
 
When using a 2 to 1 adapter, you will need to use spacers to raise the acrylic cover to provide space for the higher components.  This is also very beneficial in allowing the amp to run significantly cooler.   With the proper spacers and longer screws, the raised cover is hardly noticeable. 
 
Ron
 


 

 

 

[captouch]

I and others have the AD797 in our EF5's and it seems to run fine.  The datasheet operating range for the AD797 is +/-15V and absolute max is +/-18V, so if the EF5 is outputting ~35V (i.e. +/-17.5V) per the Headfonia review, it's technically above the recommended operating rate but still within the absolute max rating.  So perhaps it could decrease the lifetime of the AD797 by consistently running near the absolute max, or maybe it's fine even long-term if there's enough margin to the spec, but it won't fry the AD797 like it did the AD8066 (which is +/-12V operating and +/-13.2V absolute max).
 
Quote:

According to the Headfonia review of this amp, the AD797 is not a suitable choice:
 
 
For opamp rolling, it’s important to take note that the EF-5 supplies close to 34Volts to the opamps. I wasn’t aware of this when I started rolling opamps on the EF-5, and as a result, I fried an AD8066 opamp (too bad, it was a good combination with the Tung Sol Black Glass) which maxes at 24V. Another popular opamp like the AD797 are also out of the operating spec. The popular OPA627 opamp, however, is a good match with the EF5, and also highly recommended for an upgrade over the stock OP275 opamp for a more refined and higher resolution sound quality.
 
 


 

 

 

[DavidK35]

OK that's good to know.
Have you or anyone else tried using the gd-Audio "moon" op-amp dual rated @ 25v?. Seems like a direct plug & play replacement, is that correct?
 
Quote:

I and others have the AD797 in our EF5's and it seems to run fine.  The datasheet operating range for the AD797 is +/-15V and absolute max is +/-18V, so if the EF5 is outputting ~35V (i.e. +/-17.5V) per the Headfonia review, it's technically above the recommended operating rate but still within the absolute max rating.  So perhaps it could decrease the lifetime of the AD797 by consistently running near the absolute max, or maybe it's fine even long-term if there's enough margin to the spec, but it won't fry the AD797 like it did the AD8066 (which is +/-12V operating and +/-13.2V absolute max).
 


 

 

 

[francisdemarte]

Kind of, since it's discrete it's large and doesn't really fit well in the EF-5. You can probably lay it on it's side with the extension harness. 

 

[captouch]

No, I haven't, but I think the issue would likely be mechanical fit.  I don't think there's enough physical room to fit the Moon module in there.
 
Quote:

OK that's good to know.
Have you or anyone else tried using the gd-Audio "moon" op-amp dual rated @ 25v?. Seems like a direct plug & play replacement, is that correct?