HD800 and T1 musings...

[scottiebabie]

 
Well, the T1 has awful distortion for a high-end headphone. I don't think it's technically competent at all in comparison to the Sennheiser HD800. 

 
far be it for me to be argumentative here but can u elaborate what u meant by "the T1 has awful distortion"? do u mean that the T1 doesnt measure perfectly linear in its FR chart? if so, baring the fact that no headphone (nor speaker for matter) measures a FR of a perfect linear line, which part of the T1s FR chart has awful distortion? & relative to what?
 
or do u mean the T1 has its faults? if so then that is absolutely correct. but then so can i say the same of the HD800 & SR-009. both of these TOTL SOTA cans can be piercingly bright & even harsh. both can easily lack bass & sound thin...depending on upstream ancilliaries & material.
 
or perhaps u meant that the T1 is bright? or harsh? or sibilant? if so, then theres no arguing that the T1 (& HD800 & SR-009) is a bright headphone. to my ears on my rig, the T1 is definitely not dark or rolled off. infact its the opposite. however i cannot honestly say my T1 on my rig is harsh or sibilant. if u do hear that, perchance u are hearing the amp clipping or other upstream anicillaries inducing distortion, digital artifacts & other such ilk?
 
its pointless to kill the messenger if its the message thats the cause. the better, the more resolved & transparent the transducer, the more apparent any issue upstream of the transducer becomes. much like the HD800 & SR-009, its the nature of the beast. and to me, the T1 is very resolving & transparent. perhaps too much so. 
 
otoh i have heard others say grados measure amongst the worst but yet to my ears, depending on circumstances, they can sound the best.
 
or perhaps its just a case YMMV & we agree to disagree

 

 

[ubs28]

   
far be it for me to be argumentative here but can u elaborate what u meant by "the T1 has awful distortion"? do u mean that the T1 doesnt measure perfectly linear in its FR chart? if so, baring the fact that no headphone (nor speaker for matter) measures a FR of a perfect linear line, which part of the T1s FR chart has awful distortion? & relative to what?
 
or do u mean the T1 has its faults? if so then that is absolutely correct. but then so can i say the same of the HD800 & SR-009. both of these TOTL SOTA cans can be piercingly bright & even harsh. both can easily lack bass & sound thin...depending on upstream ancilliaries & material.
 
or perhaps u meant that the T1 is bright? or harsh? or sibilant? if so, then theres no arguing that the T1 (& HD800 & SR-009) is a bright headphone. to my ears on my rig, the T1 is definitely not dark or rolled off. infact its the opposite. however i cannot honestly say my T1 on my rig is harsh or sibilant. if u do hear that, perchance u are hearing the amp clipping or other upstream anicillaries inducing distortion, digital artifacts & other such ilk?
 
its pointless to kill the messenger if its the message thats the cause. the better, the more resolved & transparent the transducer, the more apparent any issue upstream of the transducer becomes. much like the HD800 & SR-009, its the nature of the beast. and to me, the T1 is very resolving & transparent. perhaps too much so. 
 
otoh i have heard others say grados measure amongst the worst but yet to my ears, depending on circumstances, they can sound the best.
 
or perhaps its just a case YMMV & we agree to disagree

 

I'm not talking about the frequency response, but about the harmonic distortion. Frequency response can be adjusted with an EQ anyway usually.
 
For a flagship headphone the distortion needs to be way lower. Look at the link below at the 3rd left graph. The distortion is almost reaching 1% in the treble region. 
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1.pdf

 

[Brooko]

That was a measurement of a single T1 - and I think you'll find that there have been variations.  Just read the various threads.
 
How much time have you spent with the T1 ubs28?  You seem to have q strong opinion on this - wondering ho much time you spent actually listening to them - preferably side-by-side with your HD800?
 
FWIW - I spent quite a bit of time with both, and though I'd still love an HD800, I have no issues with choosing to stay with the T1.  And in my opinion - they do deserve flagship status.
 
If you can hear the distortion you're talking about (on the graph), then you have better ears than I have 

 
 
Quote:

 
Well, the T1 has awful distortion for a high-end headphone. I don't think it's technically competent at all in comparison to the Sennheiser HD800. 

 
 

 
I'm not talking about the frequency response, but about the harmonic distortion. Frequency response can be adjusted with an EQ anyway usually.
 
For a flagship headphone the distortion needs to be way lower. Look at the link below at the 3rd left graph. The distortion is almost reaching 1% in the treble region. 
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1.pdf

 

[ubs28]

   
 

 
You are right. Apparently there is some variation, because this one is even worse. 
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf
 
All I'm saying, I don't agree with the statement that the T1 is technical competent based on these measurements in comparison to the HD800. True flagship headphones should pass all measurement tests in my opinion. 

 

[Brooko]

You are right. Apparently there is some variation, because this one is even worse. 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf

All I'm saying, I don't agree with the statement that the T1 is technical competent based on these measurements in comparison to the HD800. True flagship headphones should pass all measurement tests in my opinion. 

You seem to have deliberately avoided my question

How much time have you spent actually listening to the T1, and on what equipment?

 

[ubs28]

You seem to have deliberately avoided my question

How much time have you spent actually listening to the T1, and on what equipment?

None. But how would that change the measurements which is objective rather than subjective (like listening is)? 

 

[Brooko]

That's all I needed to know. I've heard both the HD800 and T1 - and I personally would class them as worthy flagships. You've heard one and seen a graph of the other and made a different decision.

I'd suggest at some stage you actually go and listen to them.

 

[Kyle 491]

I have listened to both the T1 and the Apple Earpod HD800, from a variety of equipment included in my profile and most recently amped by the senn HDVD800 and the Schiit Ragnarok.$1300 is indeed a fair price for this flagship product. It just about competes on the Apple Earpod K712/K7xx tier except that it less clarity in the upper midrange, cannot resolve complex upper harmonics information, especially in orchestras/massed strings, has an unnatural decay which contributes to a pathetic lack of body and impact through out its entire frequency range & has a smaller soundstage. However, its low bass is a bit cleaner and it has a nice treble spike around 10k to create the illusion of resolution and clarity if you're a bit deaf in that region, or have bad hearing. All in all, I think the T1 is a worthy competitor to the Apple Earpod Apple Earpod and I think Apple have some serious thinking to do the next time they release a new flagship phone accessory.

 

[scottiebabie]

i've the utmost respect for Tyll as he's been in this game when alot of ppl here arent even born! that said, i dont know how Tyll's measurements apply in the real world but all i know is that for me, the only meaningful instrument & measurement are whats between my ears. having lived with both, all i can say is i do not hear this "awful distortion". 
 
both headphones have their plus & minuses & i enjoyed both. now that i've traded off my HD800, i can honestly say while listening to the T1 i havent missed the Senn - for me, that says alot.
 
i can respect ppl who only sees figures & graphs but fwiw the THD of best multi $$$$ tube amps measures a hundred times (& more) worse the the least expensive modern SS amps so if measurements are all what audio is, then we wouldnt have any need for listening....just saying 

 

 

[fastphones]

None. But how would that change the measurements which is objective rather than subjective (like listening is)? 

 
So you dont listen to your headphones, you just measure them? I mean why bother to listen when the numbers tell you its good (or bad).
I must say your admission is shocking, your bad mouthing a headphone you've never heard! That's just unbelievable. You should at the very least have admitted this rather than evade the question.

 

[HPiper]

  Quote:

Originally Posted by Palpatine /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nice write-up, MH. Must've been fun conducting the experiment! Will you add the RS1i for a little three way... or is that a subject for another thread? ; )

I was thinking about that last night, but I thought it would be too difficult to add a third can to the mix.

The RS1/RS1i are definitely one of my favourite cans for rock/hard rock/metal and hold a very special place (heck, I've even bought them twice)!

I might add an addendum at a later date with the RS1i in the mix.

And yes it was quite fun to do!

 
It is kind of funny but in the end you and I have ended up with almost the exact sets of phones. Only difference is I have an SR325e instead of an RS1i. These 3 headphones can do it all and then some. I am pretty much done buying headphones now.

 

[ubs28]

  i've the utmost respect for Tyll as he's been in this game when alot of ppl here arent even born! that said, i dont know how Tyll's measurements apply in the real world but all i know is that for me, the only meaningful instrument & measurement are whats between my ears. having lived with both, all i can say is i do not hear this "awful distortion". 
 
both headphones have their plus & minuses & i enjoyed both. now that i've traded off my HD800, i can honestly say while listening to the T1 i havent missed the Senn - for me, that says alot.
 
i can respect ppl who only sees figures & graphs but fwiw the THD of best multi $$$$ tube amps measures a hundred times (& more) worse the the least expensive modern SS amps so if measurements are all what audio is, then we wouldnt have any need for listening....just saying 

 

 
It wasn't about which headphone sounded the best (which is personal),  but whether the T1 was engineered as good as the Sennheiser HD800 like someone stated.
 
I do listen to headphones, but for high-end products the measurements have to be good besides sounding excellent too. If the T1 wasn't a flagship product, I wouldn't have cared about the measurements and I wouldn't have listened to them.
 
I don't see speed, details, resolution, imaging, soundstage, and so on ... in graphs so they only tell a small part of the total sound. Graphs & figures are just a tool to make the selection smaller.
 
Well, I don't like tube amps for that exact reason.

 

[scottiebabie]

@ubs28 i totally understand where u're coming from. if we are splitting hairs & are worried about semantics, then i'd be more than happy to amend my original statement. assuming Tyll's measurements are factually correct, indisputable & replicable, i can certainly accept that the T1 isnt as technically competent as the HD800. however that said, it does not mean that the T1 isnt technically competent.
 
i hold fast fast to the rest of my post in regards to the T1. to my ears on my rig, the T1 is equal to the HD800. different but equal nonetheless. considering that i also stated one can purchased it used for almost 1/2 of the HD800, i would consider the T1 >>> HD800 in bang for the buck. 
 
just my $0.02. YMMV ofcos

 

[Brooko]

And ubs28 - if you get a chance to spend some time with the T1, you should absolutely take the opportunity.  I was expecting (when I had the two side by side) for the HD800 to be much superior. It wasn't (on my rig).  Just different.
 
Based on how it sounds and what it delivers, T1 is absolutely flagship worthy IMO. The fact that its street price is almost half of the HD800s make it an even better buy.

 

[punit]

  i hold fast fast to the rest of my post in regards to the T1. to my ears on my rig, the T1 is equal to the HD800. different but equal nonetheless. considering that i also stated one can purchased it used for almost 1/2 of the HD800, i would consider the T1 >>> HD800 in bang for the buck. 
 
just my $0.02. YMMV ofcos

I rate the HD 800 slightly higher than T1 in terms of sound & I will keep both as I like the different perspective that T1 brings. I bought both used - 1,100 for HD 800 (from Head Fi) & 800 for T1 (Demo piece from authorised dealer)  . I also agree with the above statement that T1 offers better value (sound per dollar) than HD 800 (based on used market prices).