[derbigpr]

I don't know how to begin this thread without starting a headphones vs speakers war (which is not my intention)...I guess I'm just
gonna have to ask it.  Are headphones a big rip-off in terms of what you get and what you pay for?  I always heard people saying that headphones compared to speakers (that cost about the same) offer much higher sound quality. I believed it, until now. 
 
I was on the market for HD650's  (after being incredibly disappointed by HD558's which put me to sleep no matter what i play on them). So i walked into the store, and I saw the Bowers & Wilkins 685's small (well, actually, a better word would be, HUGE compared to how they look on pictures)  bookshelf speakers on sale.  They cost 500 euros (down from 750), which is exactly as much as the HD650's cost in my country.  So I got interested, and without mentioning my interested in headphones, I asked the salesman if he could hook up the speakers to an amp so I could hear how they sound.  He then hooked them up to some NAD amplifier (haven't checked the model).  I was REALLY impressed by how good these little speakers sound. I mean, its incredible how speakers that small can sound that big.  The bass response is especially impressive, its goes much deeper than I thought it would, and it gives me a nice punchy feeling in the chest (probaby since i'm not used to listening to speakers). Mids, highs...everything sounded very natural. The details especially...the guitar sounded extremely crisp and detailed, with very nice timbre.  To make this story shorter...after spending about 20 mins (salesman was busy, so he left me inside the listening room alone, which was very stupid on  his part, since I was surrounded by hi-fi equipment that costs more than my house, but then again, i guess i can't carry out a 200 pound speaker without someone noticing)  listening to various music samples on the speakers, and after he came back  I actually told him that I came to the store to buy HD650's. He then laughed cynically, but he offered to hook them up so I could have a listen. He used the same source  (some Marantz CD player) and pro-ject headbox SE2 headphone amp. I have to say, I was impressed by how the headphones sounded compared to my HD558's, but compared to the speakers, every aspect of the sound was inferior.  What I expected was that headphones will have less bass, but more mids and more details. But I was wrong...maybe the headphones do have high SQ on the paper, but the listening experience is nowhere near as nice as with the speakers.  Everything sounded much more natural, crisp, detailed, weighty on the speakers, while everything sounded thin and "weak" on the headphones. And they were burned in, and did use a proper source, proper music (not some mp3's or bad FLAC's)... I guess the amplifier wasn't the best out there, but I cant see it playing a huge enough part in the whole story to change my mind.
 
So then I asked myself one question, unless you really cant use speakers, or need your music on the run, WHY in the world would you buy these headphones over the speakers?  I mean, first of all, when you buy headphones, you get a piece of cheap squeaky plastic, some foam, some fake alcantara, some cable, and 2 drivers. When you buy speakers, you get 30 pounds of wood, aluminum, metal, kevlar, high quality plastic etc.... AND, the speakers sounded much better.   So, I ask this question, WHY are headphones so expensive, and why do people claim that they sound better than speakers?  It's kind of like saying that watching x-rated movies is better than actually doing "it".
My point is, being an audiophile or a music lover is about enjoying music, right? And music just sounds much more "musical" and enjoyable on B&W685 than on the HD650's.
 
PS: I apologize in case I offended anyone.  I'm not an audio expert, just a guy with an honest opinion...and no, I haven't bought the speakers, but I haven't bought the headphones either.

 

[purrin]

It's true. In light of the more recent USD1000+ models, headphones are starting to become rip-offs. If you are into near-field monitoring or desktop speakers, you can build some really nice ones using top-shelf drivers and even throw in some sophisticated measuring tools for what you spend on headphones. I've got wife and kids in the house, so I need headphones for my night time listening.
 
It wasn't that long ago that RS1, HD650 were TOTL and STAX were very niche.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Lower prices, headphones typically trump speakers.  Once you start going north of the $700 mark, they seem to even out, and above ~$1100, no contest to the speakers.
 
That said, there are a lot of nice headphones that aren't chintzy pieces of junk like you've described, and it seems like most speakers under $500 are nothing but shoddy drivers in veneer particleboard boxes.
 
At the moment, I have headphones because speakers aren't a viable setup for me.  As soon as I have some more space and my wallet isn't crying alone in a corner at night, I'm going to buy a decent speaker setup - but I'll likely still use my headphones at my computer.

 

[caracara08]

doesnt the source and amp matter for both speakers and headphones? i never had any real speakers so i cant say.  but i would ASSUME if you plugged in speakers to say onboard sound from a computer or whatever youre playing it on, it probably wouldnt sound as good as it should? am i wrong?
i think headphones fill a need and are much more versatile than speakers.  of course theres always diminishing returns but for headphones i think after you try a flagship, its hard to settle back down to a 200-300. if you never tried anything better, of course the k70x and hd6x0 might be the bees knees.

 

[TobaccoRoad]

Generally I like speakers better too. I'm just in a position where private listening is necessary.

 

[derbigpr]

Quote:

doesnt the source and amp matter for both speakers and headphones? i never had any real speakers so i cant say.  but i would ASSUME if you plugged in speakers to say onboard sound from a computer or whatever youre playing it on, it probably wouldnt sound as good as it should? am i wrong?
i think headphones fill a need and are much more versatile than speakers.  of course theres always diminishing returns but for headphones i think after you try a flagship, its hard to settle back down to a 200-300. if you never tried anything better, of course the k70x and hd6x0 might be the bees knees.

Yes, source and amp do matter. As i said,  the source was a marantz cd player, and amp was some NAD for speakers, and Pro-ject for headphones.   Both components (cd player / and both amps) costing about the same as headphones / speakers themselves.

 

[khatch]

Not all of us can/want to build commercial quality, professionally designed listening rooms in our homes.  My house is full of hardwood floors, coffered ceilings and hard walls with art hung on them - which is an absolutely horrific formula for floor standing speakers.  It's an absolute echo box.  Given those constraints - my HD800s, when properly driven from my desktop rig, run circles around what I could build for a sound system in my living room - for even ten times the price.

 

[derbigpr]

Quote:

That said, there are a lot of nice headphones that aren't chintzy pieces of junk like you've described, and it seems like most speakers under $500 are nothing but shoddy drivers in veneer particleboard boxes.
 

 
I'm not saying HD650's are pieces of junk. But the fact is, they ARE made of cheap plastic, and a small amount of plastic as well, and they do feel fragile, and they do squeak on the head.   On the other hand, for the same money, you get TWO speakers, each made of real wood, tweeter made from aluminum, mid-range driver made of kevlar and metal....etc, etc. The materials used to make ONE of those speakers cost 10 times more (if not even more than that) than to make one pair of headphones.  Not to mention its more time consuming to make a speaker as well.  And in the end, you get better sound out of them.  I'm not necessarily saying that speakers sound much better, but they do sound better. The sheer fact that they take much longer to make, they're made of much more material,  more expensive material as well...and after all that, they cost the same as a pair of headphones, smells like a rip-off to me.  I mean, i understand why some little things cost a lot....like iPhone, which costs 500 euros, its a very complex little device. But theres nothing complex in a pair of headphones. The most complex thing inside is a driver, and compared to a microchip inside an iPhone its like comparing .... a piece of very thin plastic that vibrates to a microchip.
 
The bottom line is,  headphones cost that much because they CAN cost that much.  People buy them, so manufacturers use the situation and rise the prices of their products, even though they're not better than the predecessors.  Perfect example are my HD558's. They sound 0,6% better than older HD555's, but they cost twice as much. Another example including my HD558's.  The HD650's sound maybe 10% better than 558's, but they cost 3 times as much.... I guess the fact that we buy something expensive that's not worth even a tenth of its prices makes us feel more proud about ourselves, and makes us feel like we're using an exclusive product.

 

[derycksan]

Also, you need to consider the costs of driving the speakers (a "cheap" NAD stereo amp is $800USD) and space constraints.  I have some old, rebuilt, magneplanars that blow away my headphones, however, I can't seem to find a room that they fit in and sound good.
 
There's a point where speakers out perform headphones, for me its about the $400+ range.  I'd rather have a pair of Paradigm mini's running off of a Pioneer A-35R than a k701 rig, but hey, that's just me.

 

[derbigpr]

Quote:

Also, you need to consider the costs of driving the speakers (a "cheap" NAD stereo amp is $800USD)
 

 
Headphone amps and DAC's arent cheap either.

 

[cavedave]

You know what is funny, Awhile ago I went to a stereo store and the guy in charge asked me to listen to a system that cost in excess of fifty thousand and after 20 minutes or so. Thought what a rip off. Even if I had the money I would rather listen to headphones. I just like what headphones do as a listening experince I just dont get it from speakers. Dont get me wrong speakers and systems with speakers are just fine and some people swear by them. Thirty years ago I would have been one of them. I have just latley bought the LCD-2s and am enjoying them big time. To me at least there is just something about headphones that speakers dont do for me. I guess that is why this is a headphone site where many feel the same way. For those who dont then listen to speakers and console your self with the thought there really is not a correct answer to the problem. What ever works for you is what is good for you. Simple stuff. I really like headphones for alot of reasons and can understand why others do not and guess what I spend very little time trying to get them to see it diffrent. Most people look at those of us who really enjoy this hobby as sorta simple that suits me just fine. I really love headphones and will continue to listen to them and love every minute of it. As I am sure many on here will do the same. For those who like speaker base systems you can do the same and enjoy those too and you know what I remenber years ago I did not have to spend an arm and a leg to really enjoy those either. I guess the bottom line is I find headphones a very personal and enjoyable experince and there is something about that I dont think money is the real object in a world where you can spend all kinds of money trying to please ones self I find headphones well worth the cost. For those who dont OH Well diffrent strokes for diffrent folks. You knew I was going to say that didnt you?

 

[DemonicLemming]

HD-650s aren't known for stellar build quality, but there are some nice headphones out there that cost less than good speakers, that have good build quality.  Also, a lot of the cheap speakers use particleboard, not MDF or solid lumber, for the cabinetry - and I don't consider particleboard wood, since it's just sawdust and glue.  And a lot of cheap speakers use pressed-paper cones for the drivers, not kevlar, titanium, or other more expensive materials.
 
I don't disagree with you in general, but it seems like you're comparing a single set of headphones with mediocre build quality (and an average market price of ~$250-300) to more expensive speakers, and generalising speakers as always sounding better than headphones.  There are a lot of speakers that sound absolutely horrible - even expensive ones.  I could also make the argument that your iPhone costs that much because Apple can get away with charging that much for it and people will still buy it; if you saw the actual production costs of a lot of smart phones, they're significantly lower than their retail price or even open market price is.  If Mattel made the iPhone, and it was the exact same device, would you still pay 500 Euros for it?  Name brand goes a long way towards determining the pricing structure of things, even when it's a completely invalid convention.
 
Speakers are an inherently very simple technology - a magnet, some wire, a cone, and a box, and they make noise.  It's the research that costs money - and just because something seems to be of a simple mechanical design doesn't mean it didn't require a lot of R&D to arrive at.
 
If we're going to make a more fair comparison to the HD-650s, using the average price for them, what set(s) of active speakers below $300 can equal or match the HD-650s in sound reproduction or build quality?
 
Quote:

I'm not saying HD650's are pieces of junk. But the fact is, they ARE made of cheap plastic, and a small amount of plastic as well, and they do feel fragile, and they do squeak on the head.   On the other hand, for the same money, you get TWO speakers, each made of real wood, tweeter made from aluminum, mid-range driver made of kevlar and metal....etc, etc. The materials used to make ONE of those speakers cost 10 times more (if not even more than that) than to make one pair of headphones.  Not to mention its more time consuming to make a speaker as well.  And in the end, you get better sound out of th.  I'm not necessarily saying that speakers sound much better, but they do sound better. The sheer fact that they take much longer to make, they're made of much more material,  more expensive material as well...and after all that, they cost the same as a pair of headphones, smells like a rip-off to me.  I mean, i understand why some little things cost a lot....like iPhone, which costs 500 euros, its a very complex little device. But theres nothing complex in a pair of headphones. The most complex thing inside is a driver, and compared to a microchip inside an iPhone its like comparing .... a piece of very thin plastic that vibrates to a microchip.
 
The bottom line is,  headphones cost that much because they CAN cost that much.  People buy them, so manufacturers use the situation and rise the prices of their products, even though they're not better than the predecessors.  Perfect example are my HD558's. They sound 0,6% better than older HD555's, but they cost twice as much. Another example including my HD558's.  The HD650's sound maybe 10% better than 558's, but they cost 3 times as much.... I guess the fact that we buy something expensive that's not worth even a tenth of its prices makes us feel more proud about ourselves, and makes us feel like we're using an exclusive product.

 

 

[LugBug1]

just my 2 cents to a very interesting read
 
It may seem like hp's such as the 650's are cheaply made, but any other material used would have an effect on the sound I feel. Using wood for example on a design like the 650's wood (ha ha) be pointless and and easily broken. Any heavier material would make them more uncomfortable. The problem with speakers and I mean any speakers, is that you have to have a room or space that can accommodate them for the acoustic to work best. Otherwise it would be like buying an hp like the 650 and using them with an E7.
 
I listen to an appalling racket most nights. There is no way I would put my wife or my neighbors through it, so you buy two private speakers to attach to your head as the next best thing. And all in all they are pretty remarkable now compared to even 20 years ago.
 
I would also add that there is always room for robbery in the world for all hobbies.... I'm never going to pay over the midprice mark for headphones, and you can quote me on that! .   

 

[infernojim]

To me you're comparing apples with oranges. The only similarity is that both take music, driven through an amplifying device and make noise.
 
You can't strap a set of floor standing speakers to your head (!!!), and walk around with them, and you can't turn on a set of headphones and expect to get punched in the chest by the bass - because it's in your ears, not in the room...! A touch patronising, but it's a different listening altogether, one is very insular and encompassing and in your head. The other is a much wider, room filling, all encompassing experience (the bass in your chest for instance)... 
 
I do agree that in terms of sound quality, there is probably a price-level at which, as a general rule, the quality of a set of speakers will outstrip the sound of headphones / iem's. For me that would most likely be around the £300+ mark. I also agree that headphones do appear inflated in price, vis a vis speakers. 
 
However, and it's a big one, it seems rather simplistic to suggest that just because they aren't made of varnished wood, kevlar and so on, that headphones are a complete rip off. The fact that you are stating that the sound is not drastically worse than your full size speakers is actually remarkable in itself. You've got something that's portable and lightweight and practical, and can take a sound out with you that rivals a full size stereo... not something to be trivialized.
I prefer speakers from my experience to date; but I haven't really listened to proper high-quality over ear headphones yet... so time will tell! 

 

[eimis]

Sometimes I prefer my cheap Aiwa NSX-R81 media center + speakers over my Fischer Audio FA-002W-LBR headphones with YULONG D100 DAC/amp. And I think my next audio related purchase will be speaker system, not new headphones or headphone amp... I find listening to music through speakers more enjoyable. And when I return to headphones again, sound is somewhat dead to me. But, I'll keep my fa-002 because there are some situations when you can't use speakers, or in rare case some music sounds better with headphones.
 
BTW, I listen to music only when I'm home, so it's not apples vs oranges thing in my case...