Grado e Series
Jan 19, 2016 at 6:18 PM Post #6,061 of 6,729
   
Headphones and their frequency graphs are different than thermometers (and similar instruments for measurement),
no matter how carefully calibrated.
 
Thermometers measure one aspect of the physical world i.e. heat.
It''s relatively simple.
 
A headphone's FR graph measure one aspect of many which"should"
be measured for a more accurate reading.
 
What with positioning the microphones, the microphones actually
used, the machinery/electronics being used ... then translating that into
what a headphone "sounds like" > at best, the measurements obtained
do not reflect reality 100%. 
 
That's why folks like Nelson Pass and Tyll Hertsens say
(paraphrasing here) that measurements of audio gear can
tell only part of the story.
 
I'm with @stacker45 on this one > sure, graphs can give
some indication of a headphone' sound, but in the end
it's listening to the headphone that counts.

 
I'm with Stacker as well, but a different angle. It is true that instruments can measure the physics of sound signature better than our ears. The issue however is that you are measuring the wrong thing. The issue should be do you like the sound signature. Physics has no answer for this question.

One is a fact that you can see, the other is an opinion you must hear

Thus I will measure with my ears rather than my eyes

 
Thanks for your support guys. Being strongly medicated, it's nice to see that smart, normal people can still agree with me. I guess I still have a few good marbles left in me noggin!
biggrin.gif

 
Jan 21, 2016 at 10:18 AM Post #6,062 of 6,729
   
 
Thanks for your support guys. Being strongly medicated, it's nice to see that smart, normal people can still agree with me. I guess I still have a few good marbles left in me noggin!
biggrin.gif

 
Your noggin is fine :) .
 
I apologise for the long post.It does cycle back,eventually, to Grado headphones & their unfounded claims on the  audio quality improvements in the E series of headphones .
 
Science is very complicated, thus trying to get across information on a forum that deals in mainly subjective opinion is difficult. Of course if we were to relate our discussions to the evidence by using citations ,a general consensus of understanding could be formed amongst those whom think along logical paths.
 
However I wouldn’t be so much of an advocate of "normal people”. Normal being an average character/ acceptable behaviour within human society (some society’s social structures are built on irrational beliefs). Of course a generalisation of all individual people within a whole society is simplistic and always wrong. However you can generalise the overall actions of the human species, using their actions (what they actually do) as data (evidence) rather than their words.
Ecologically the general behaviour of humans is parasitic. However, evolutionary the evidence clearly shows that humans are mammals, evolved from primates. Thus are very social animals capable of caring for themselves and other physical objects that they perceive value in.
So you could argue that there are certain social (political, religious) systems that are making the collective actions of a majority (normal) of human’s parasitic in nature. A majority whom are ecologically and evolutionary ignorant on how they relate to the natural environment. Thus neglect is the all too dominant behaviour.  Ecologically Parasitic , In the context of the gathered scientific evidence of how humans are degrading, polluting  habitats, driving other animals to extinction ,causing severe climate change ( too fast for many species to adapt) and generally trying to maintain  ecologically out of touch society’s  that the evidence suggests simply are not sustainable . Expanding city's and expanding mono culture agricultural to feed the people in these cities (historically industrial cities having been designed predominantly by architects, business people & their associate politicians with very little ecological pre-planning).
 
Thus, “Normal” in the context of ecology is unhealthy.
 
And whilst this post may (get deleted due to being  off the pro-capitalism topic) seem to have gone way of topic, and, no doubt, many will strongly object to anything which isn't the "normal" narrative, whilst also using aggressive and personal tactics in order to try and deflect the reader away from  a evidence based rationale argument (climate change deniers :wink:. In objective reality (the one that drives the weather)) everything really is connected. The ecological saying that "everything is connected" is not just some dreamt up sound bite. Scientists are gathering more information that suggests "normal" people need to wise up and be quick about it. The climate is already heading towards a new state of equilibrium caused by human actions releasing massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. However, this new state maybe  manageable,if the majority of humans become more rationale in their actions. That means people learning what it means to be alive. Religion and myth won’t help you to find a true meaning. Science, especially the “natural” sciences such as human biology, ecology, cosmology, evolution etc can help a human to know what they are and how they relate to the planet they live on.
Thus reason not ignorance is how humans should form our decisions. (Back on thread) You may want to like the new Grado headphones, because we are all biased towards wanting things to be better in life (unless you belong to some perverse religious cult where you may want things to be better in the "next life"). But without any transparent information, “better” is just a subjective opinion. Thus Grado should not be making unfounded claims without showing any evidence for those claims.
 
Anyway, since there does not seem to be any data available on the audio improvements of the latest Grado E series headphones, I will just have to find the nearest stockist and compare them with my current Grado SR80 (modified) headphones. Maybe my subjective opinion will just want to hear that the new Grado’s sound better or maybe they are better. It seems manufacture’s think the “best guess” method is the most effective way to sell lots of new headphones (products). And they are obviously right about that.
 
Please dispose of your old products ethically, because it’s your waste.
 
 

 
 
 

 
Jan 21, 2016 at 11:22 AM Post #6,063 of 6,729
   
Your noggin is fine :) .
 
I apologise for the long post.It does cycle back,eventually, to Grado headphones & their unfounded claims on the  audio quality improvements in the E series of headphones .
 
Science is very complicated, thus trying to get across information on a forum that deals in mainly subjective opinion is difficult. Of course if we were to relate our discussions to the evidence by using citations ,a general consensus of understanding could be formed amongst those whom think along logical paths.
 
However I wouldn’t be so much of an advocate of "normal people”. Normal being an average character/ acceptable behaviour within human society (some society’s social structures are built on irrational beliefs). Of course a generalisation of all individual people within a whole society is simplistic and always wrong. However you can generalise the overall actions of the human species, using their actions (what they actually do) as data (evidence) rather than their words.
Ecologically the general behaviour of humans is parasitic. However, evolutionary the evidence clearly shows that humans are mammals, evolved from primates. Thus are very social animals capable of caring for themselves and other physical objects that they perceive value in.
So you could argue that there are certain social (political, religious) systems that are making the collective actions of a majority (normal) of human’s parasitic in nature. A majority whom are ecologically and evolutionary ignorant on how they relate to the natural environment. Thus neglect is the all too dominant behaviour.  Ecologically Parasitic , In the context of the gathered scientific evidence of how humans are degrading, polluting  habitats, driving other animals to extinction ,causing severe climate change ( too fast for many species to adapt) and generally trying to maintain  ecologically out of touch society’s  that the evidence suggests simply are not sustainable . Expanding city's and expanding mono culture agricultural to feed the people in these cities (historically industrial cities having been designed predominantly by architects, business people & their associate politicians with very little ecological pre-planning).
 
Thus, “Normal” in the context of ecology is unhealthy.
 
And whilst this post may (get deleted due to being  off the pro-capitalism topic) seem to have gone way of topic, and, no doubt, many will strongly object to anything which isn't the "normal" narrative, whilst also using aggressive and personal tactics in order to try and deflect the reader away from  a evidence based rationale argument (climate change deniers :wink:. In objective reality (the one that drives the weather)) everything really is connected. The ecological saying that "everything is connected" is not just some dreamt up sound bite. Scientists are gathering more information that suggests "normal" people need to wise up and be quick about it. The climate is already heading towards a new state of equilibrium caused by human actions releasing massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. However, this new state maybe  manageable,if the majority of humans become more rationale in their actions. That means people learning what it means to be alive. Religion and myth won’t help you to find a true meaning. Science, especially the “natural” sciences such as human biology, ecology, cosmology, evolution etc can help a human to know what they are and how they relate to the planet they live on.
Thus reason not ignorance is how humans should form our decisions. (Back on thread) You may want to like the new Grado headphones, because we are all biased towards wanting things to be better in life (unless you belong to some perverse religious cult where you may want things to be better in the "next life"). But without any transparent information, “better” is just a subjective opinion. Thus Grado should not be making unfounded claims without showing any evidence for those claims.
 
Anyway, since there does not seem to be any data available on the audio improvements of the latest Grado E series headphones, I will just have to find the nearest stockist and compare them with my current Grado SR80 (modified) headphones. Maybe my subjective opinion will just want to hear that the new Grado’s sound better or maybe they are better. It seems manufacture’s think the “best guess” method is the most effective way to sell lots of new headphones (products). And they are obviously right about that.
 
Please dispose of your old products ethically, because it’s your waste.
 
 

 
 
 

 
 
Your statement "...a generalisation...is always wrong." has an internal (and fatal) contradiction.
 
Then you state, "However, you can generalise [the overall actions of the human species...]",
which further confuses the premise.
 
Reading your post with an open mind, I'm honestly not sure what your point(s) is (are).
Is it supportive?  Is it helpful?  Does it follow the generally accepted rules of open dialogue?
Is it rhetorical? Is it demonstrative? 
 
Perhaps you wish to clarify, simplify, amplify?
 
The greatest scientists (Einstein, Feynman, others) often spoke of the beautiful simplicity 
of their field.  And the greatest writers often remark on their relentless editing
and re-editing. 
cool.gif
 
 
Jan 21, 2016 at 12:43 PM Post #6,065 of 6,729
   
Your noggin is fine :) .
 
I apologise for the long post.It does cycle back,eventually, to Grado headphones & their unfounded claims on the  audio quality improvements in the E series of headphones .
 
Science is very complicated, thus trying to get across information on a forum that deals in mainly subjective opinion is difficult. Of course if we were to relate our discussions to the evidence by using citations ,a general consensus of understanding could be formed amongst those whom think along logical paths.
 
However I wouldn’t be so much of an advocate of "normal people”. Normal being an average character/ acceptable behaviour within human society (some society’s social structures are built on irrational beliefs). Of course a generalisation of all individual people within a whole society is simplistic and always wrong. However you can generalise the overall actions of the human species, using their actions (what they actually do) as data (evidence) rather than their words.
Ecologically the general behaviour of humans is parasitic. However, evolutionary the evidence clearly shows that humans are mammals, evolved from primates. Thus are very social animals capable of caring for themselves and other physical objects that they perceive value in.
So you could argue that there are certain social (political, religious) systems that are making the collective actions of a majority (normal) of human’s parasitic in nature. A majority whom are ecologically and evolutionary ignorant on how they relate to the natural environment. Thus neglect is the all too dominant behaviour.  Ecologically Parasitic , In the context of the gathered scientific evidence of how humans are degrading, polluting  habitats, driving other animals to extinction ,causing severe climate change ( too fast for many species to adapt) and generally trying to maintain  ecologically out of touch society’s  that the evidence suggests simply are not sustainable . Expanding city's and expanding mono culture agricultural to feed the people in these cities (historically industrial cities having been designed predominantly by architects, business people & their associate politicians with very little ecological pre-planning).
 
Thus, “Normal” in the context of ecology is unhealthy.
 
And whilst this post may (get deleted due to being  off the pro-capitalism topic) seem to have gone way of topic, and, no doubt, many will strongly object to anything which isn't the "normal" narrative, whilst also using aggressive and personal tactics in order to try and deflect the reader away from  a evidence based rationale argument (climate change deniers :wink:. In objective reality (the one that drives the weather)) everything really is connected. The ecological saying that "everything is connected" is not just some dreamt up sound bite. Scientists are gathering more information that suggests "normal" people need to wise up and be quick about it. The climate is already heading towards a new state of equilibrium caused by human actions releasing massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. However, this new state maybe  manageable,if the majority of humans become more rationale in their actions. That means people learning what it means to be alive. Religion and myth won’t help you to find a true meaning. Science, especially the “natural” sciences such as human biology, ecology, cosmology, evolution etc can help a human to know what they are and how they relate to the planet they live on.
Thus reason not ignorance is how humans should form our decisions. (Back on thread) You may want to like the new Grado headphones, because we are all biased towards wanting things to be better in life (unless you belong to some perverse religious cult where you may want things to be better in the "next life"). But without any transparent information, “better” is just a subjective opinion. Thus Grado should not be making unfounded claims without showing any evidence for those claims.
 
Anyway, since there does not seem to be any data available on the audio improvements of the latest Grado E series headphones, I will just have to find the nearest stockist and compare them with my current Grado SR80 (modified) headphones. Maybe my subjective opinion will just want to hear that the new Grado’s sound better or maybe they are better. It seems manufacture’s think the “best guess” method is the most effective way to sell lots of new headphones (products). And they are obviously right about that.
 
Please dispose of your old products ethically, because it’s your waste.
 
 

 
 
 

i don't understand what you're driving at. 
grado is a private company of consumer audio products, which are meant for pleasure, not scientific , or technical purposes. as such, if they feel something is an improvement to their ears, 
can't they say that ? 
let's look at a food product, can't the brand say "new and improved" , and to them, it may be, and to the consumer, that may, or may not be true. they can read that there are different ingredients, but they may prefer the old , "pre" new and improved product, can that be quantified ?
can one quantify as to why i like one song more than the other, or one piece of art over the other ? 
i hope you don't i'm trying to be argumentative , i not trying to be. i love science, i believe in science, but i also am a lover of art, and beauty, and i kinda guess as far as music, and sound goes
that's more important to me than the science of it. 
now there is a forum that does care more about the science of sound, and you may, or may not know about it
http://www.head-fi.org/f/133/sound-science
 
as for me, the ultimate test of a piece of audio gear , and how good it is, is does it let me enjoy music more. does it help keep my head bobbing and toes tapping. 
of course, each of us has our own set of priorities, and that's cool, to me anyway.  i present my feeling as just that, my feelings, and opinion, and not fact.
i'm just throwing my $.02 out there. and as always, "enjoy the music"
 
Jan 21, 2016 at 9:08 PM Post #6,066 of 6,729
Following  post of Bio Rhythm's caliber is not an easy task for a French speaking longshoreman, so to avoid passing for an iliterate jackass, I'll keep my reply short.
 
In my opinion, if we want these threads to be both, educative, and peacefull, we have to show respect towards one another. I also think that it is essential that we all keep an open mind about our wonderful hobby.
beerchug.gif
 
 
Jan 21, 2016 at 9:18 PM Post #6,067 of 6,729
  Following  post of Bio Rhythm's caliber is not an easy task for a French speaking longshoreman, so to avoid passing for an iliterate jackass, I'll keep my reply short.
 
In my opinion, if we want these threads to be both, educative, and peacefull, we have to show respect towards one another. I also think that it is essential that we all keep an open mind about our wonderful hobby.
beerchug.gif
 

I agree, and this is kind of you to say but...
confused_face_2.gif

 
Jan 21, 2016 at 9:23 PM Post #6,068 of 6,729
I believe Bio-Rhythm point was that Grado was making unfounded claims that the revised E-series has audio improvements because there is not enough statistic measurements to prove such claims. IMO, sound improvement is a very subjective, personal thing. If suppose the i-series is very bass-prominent and the revised e-series has lesser bass by eg. -8db, then from a bass-favored listener perspective the e-series is not an improvement but for a neutral-favored listeners, they will see it as an improvement. Then, there is also marketing. Undoubtedly, no company will advertise their revised products as having no progress from previous iteration. Capitalism does not work this way. Everyone works out-of self-interest, it is the invisible hand that guides the economy.
 
Lastly, I believe measurements only tell part of the story for a headphone. It is better to demo one and see if you like them. Purchased them if you like what you're hearing from the headphones, else, look at others.
 
Just my two cents. Cheers!
 
Jan 21, 2016 at 9:59 PM Post #6,069 of 6,729
  I agree, and this is kind of you to say but...
confused_face_2.gif

 
It's utopic, I know, but I can dream, can't I?
biggrin.gif

 
 
  I believe Bio-Rhythm point was that Grado was making unfounded claims that the revised E-series has audio improvements because there is not enough statistic measurements to prove such claims. IMO, sound improvement is a very subjective, personal thing. If suppose the i-series is very bass-prominent and the revised e-series has lesser bass by eg. -8db, then from a bass-favored listener perspective the e-series is not an improvement but for a neutral-favored listeners, they will see it as an improvement. Then, there is also marketing. Undoubtedly, no company will advertise their revised products as having no progress from previous iteration. Capitalism does not work this way. Everyone works out-of self-interest, it is the invisible hand that guides the economy.
 
Lastly, I believe measurements only tell part of the story for a headphone. It is better to demo one and see if you like them. Purchased them if you like what you're hearing from the headphones, else, look at others.
 
Just my two cents. Cheers!

 
I agree, there is no right or wrong, in this subjective hobby.
 
Just my three cents.(Canadian money)
biggrin.gif

 
Jan 22, 2016 at 8:26 AM Post #6,070 of 6,729
To me, the main message of the post by @Bio-Rhythm, made strong by its brevity and initial position, is that Stacker45 's noggin is fine. YAY!!

I believe the other point is that Grado has not proven that its e series is an improvement, because neither Grado nor anyone else cite objective measurements of the e-series headphones.

I claim that even if such scientific objective measurement had been made, we would still not be able to claim whether the e-series was better or worse.

That is because we do not understand the subjective correlates of objective measurement (fancy way of saying we don't know what frequency response curve sounds good!).

I think we have to rely on human comparisons, both on specific acoustic features, as I try to do in my various 3-way comparisons as mentioned in my signature links, or in overall impressions. Frequency curves, harmonic distortion plots, and the like are just like still photographs of a person... a reasonable placeholder to tide us over when we cannot meet the headphone (or person) in question, but not a substitute for first-hand encounter.
 
Jan 26, 2016 at 8:02 PM Post #6,071 of 6,729
To me, the main message of the post by @Bio-Rhythm, made strong by its brevity and initial position, is that Stacker45 's noggin is fine. YAY!!

I believe the other point is that Grado has not proven that its e series is an improvement, because neither Grado nor anyone else cite objective measurements of the e-series headphones.

I claim that even if such scientific objective measurement had been made, we would still not be able to claim whether the e-series was better or worse.

That is because we do not understand the subjective correlates of objective measurement (fancy way of saying we don't know what frequency response curve sounds good!).

I think we have to rely on human comparisons, both on specific acoustic features, as I try to do in my various 3-way comparisons as mentioned in my signature links, or in overall impressions. Frequency curves, harmonic distortion plots, and the like are just like still photographs of a person... a reasonable placeholder to tide us over when we cannot meet the headphone (or person) in question, but not a substitute for first-hand encounter.


Good news :) . The measured evidence suggest that the Grado SR80e series do have less distortion when compared to the Grado SR80s series (I don't think they have tested the i series ).
 
http://headphones.reviewed.com/content/grado-sr80e-headphones-review
 
 
Thus Grado's claims of less distortion in the latest E series  have been at least partially (i series not tested and only SR80e tested)  justified by a independent test using  the scientific method (though far more independent tests would have to be performed for this to be accepted robust scientific knowledge-Like evolution is accepted, for one example) . Hurray! for rationale evidenced based thinkers whom don't accept the "Golden ears" belief "...er...em...."system"  (these would all be quite young people anyway!) . This is also quite important data because the older SR80 tested as having a significant amount of distortion. Noise!, which over prolonged listening levels/durations could increase the chance of hearing loss (hehe - just ever so slightly turned down my SR80's as I wrote that)
 
Quote: http://headphones.reviewed.com/content/grado-labs-sr-80-review/science-page
  the Ugly: the SR80s have some serious distortion problems.

 
V's
 
Quote:http://headphones.reviewed.com/content/grado-sr80e-headphones-review/science-page
 Although I've found better results on other models this year, Grado's SR80e still performed quite well in terms of distortion. Where many headphones produce a soft ssssss sound in the background of a soundstage, the SR80e does not. Likely due to the open backs and other strategic build qualities, sound frequencies have plenty of space to travel, as opposed to bouncing around inside of a closed speaker.

 
 
 
 
http://headphones.reviewed.com/how_we_test
 "Our approach to testing things like sound quality is to use scientific testing methods.While many other testers rely on ‘golden ears’ (those with good hearing who subjectively judge headphones), we use proven scientific test methods developed by industry experts. This means that we can not only quote specific numbers for tests (instead of saying that the music sounded bassy, we can quote a specific frequency response), but that we can run exactly the same tests and get the same results year by year.Audio performance is the most important thing we test on headphones"

 
I Apologise for the graphs, to those whom "don't listen using their eyes" ( But you understand using reason not faith).I don't use my eyes either to undertand the planet is spehrical. Good job science has the method and tools to measure the things that exist in physical reality that humans can not  perceive with our five sense's.
 

The SR80e open-backed headphones keep distortion below 2% throughout most of the audible spectrum.
 
Thus I am going to buy some E series Grado's :) . Even if they sound the same at the shop!, because the data shows that they are more healthy for prolonged listening.less distortion!, which at certain levels my be difficult to detect simply by swapping one headphone with another.
 
 
 
And Below is the graph/data/evidence for belief based doctrine.(well almost, as the graph at least as a x and y axis :) )
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
And just so they don't feel like their missing out, a little picture for the emotionally disturbed  people whom live among us and try to "persuade" the moderate citizen with their views.
 
Quote:http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/06/right-wing-extremism-explainer-charleston-mass-shooting-terrorism
 The US law enforcement community regards homegrown violent extremists, not radicalized Islamists, as the most severe threat from political violence in the country


 

 
Jan 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM Post #6,072 of 6,729
I had an experience when I moved from SR125i to Sr225e that backs this up. It might have been more to with 125 to 225 though.
 
I was playing Skyrim at the time when I canged headphones. At the game start-up there is a deep-ish thudding drum sound. This sound broke up more on the 125i.
 
Jan 27, 2016 at 6:42 PM Post #6,074 of 6,729
  Hello, guys
 
I was wondering between 325e and rs2e, which one is better for movies?
 
I really enjoyed 80e and wanted to upgrade a bit. 

Personally I think the RS would be some serious overkill for movies, in fact anything over the 225 IMO would be, generally, money wasted. Having said that, there are a few movies with some outstanding soundtracks where that wouldn't be true, but I can't see buying some headphones just for those few movies like that.
 
Jan 27, 2016 at 6:58 PM Post #6,075 of 6,729
  I had an experience when I moved from SR125i to Sr225e that backs this up. It might have been more to with 125 to 225 though.
 
I was playing Skyrim at the time when I canged headphones. At the game start-up there is a deep-ish thudding drum sound. This sound broke up more on the 125i.

 
As I've said before, I think that the e serie's drivers are more powerful than the previous versions.
 
All of the e models I've heard, play louder, at the same volume setting.
 

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