Going fully Wireless IEMs. Too soon? Or are we there yet?

[samandhi]

As to the newest FW update for the MT... I missed the 2.18 update apparently, and went straight from 2.17 to 2.19. I can tell you now that even though I hadn't heard these in a while, the sound sig has definitely changed. They can indeed get shouty a bit now with certain tracks. It is in the upper mids/lower treble that they boosted it most IMO. It makes the whole treble have more sparkle and clearer. I think the upper treble is still rolled off. So I think maybe you could think of it as a backwards (small) r shape, starting with upper mids and into the treble. These can definitely get shouty on stuff like Motorhead - Ace Of Spades but the treble now sounds a bit weird, thin, and recessed also. But, even when a song isn't shouty (per se'), it is pretty fatiguing after a bit (to my ears). But, my old ears have a 2k to 5k radar for such boosts...

As for bass, they decreased the mid bass, and boosted the lower bass and possibly the upper bass. They still have a tremendous amount of bass quantity, but now they don't have the same punch they used to have, and that kinda' messes up the whole sound signature IMO. Was just listening to Whitesnake - Death Disco while I was typing this, and WOW that upper bass is just too much (I don't recall this being an issue before, though it IS possible that I missed it before I suppose).

Mids are still recessed a bit, but are also still warm. Overall, I don't like the way they went with it. I was perfectly happy with the tuning on the FW update before the 2.17 update. The punchy bass, and non-shouty mids are part of what gave them their charm IMO, because now, they aren't neutral, nor are they really fun either. CA, if you are reading this, please go back to the sound they had before this rash of updates, and leave them alone (as far as FR goes)?!

Keep in mind, I could be wrong about all except upper bass, and upper mids, because when you boost one area, it may appear as if something else is decreased. They ARE indeed shouty now, and the bass line (not drums) takes front stage in your face.

With the 2.19 update they re-fixed the volume thing where you couldn't change the volume on the device but ONLY on the buds (whether you had absolute volume disabled or not).

I upated mine through my DX300, and it went without hitch (again), and only took about 5 minutes or so.

 

[Tommy C]

As to the newest FW update for the MT... I missed the 2.18 update apparently, and went straight from 2.17 to 2.19. I can tell you now that even though I hadn't heard these in a while, the sound sig has definitely changed. They can indeed get shouty a bit now with certain tracks. It is in the upper mids/lower treble that they boosted it most IMO. It makes the whole treble have more sparkle and clearer. I think the upper treble is still rolled off. So I think maybe you could think of it as a backwards (small) r shape, starting with upper mids and into the treble. These can definitely get shouty on stuff like Motorhead - Ace Of Spades but the treble now sounds a bit weird, thin, and recessed also. But, even when a song isn't shouty (per se'), it is pretty fatiguing after a bit (to my ears). But, my old ears have a 2k to 5k radar for such boosts...

As for bass, they decreased the mid bass, and boosted the lower bass and possibly the upper bass. They still have a tremendous amount of bass quantity, but now they don't have the same punch they used to have, and that kinda' messes up the whole sound signature IMO. Was just listening to Whitesnake - Death Disco while I was typing this, and WOW that upper bass is just too much (I don't recall this being an issue before, though it IS possible that I missed it before I suppose).

Mids are still recessed a bit, but are also still warm. Overall, I don't like the way they went with it. I was perfectly happy with the tuning on the FW update before the 2.17 update. The punchy bass, and non-shouty mids are part of what gave them their charm IMO, because now, they aren't neutral, nor are they really fun either. CA, if you are reading this, please go back to the sound they had before this rash of updates, and leave them alone (as far as FR goes)?!

Keep in mind, I could be wrong about all except upper bass, and upper mids, because when you boost one area, it may appear as if something else is decreased. They ARE indeed shouty now, and the bass line (not drums) takes front stage in your face.

With the 2.19 update they re-fixed the volume thing where you couldn't change the volume on the device but ONLY on the buds (whether you had absolute volume disabled or not).

I upated mine through my DX300, and it went without hitch (again), and only took about 5 minutes or so.

Thanks for letting us know.
I was really locked-in to order these once they become available in U.S/ Canada but I'm really hesitant based on reports that the SS has changed with each FW update. :-/

 

[FYLegend]

https://www.bluetoothgoodies.com/

https://www.bluetoothgoodies.com/tweaker/

Some users have complained that Windows was choosing AAC over AptX on their devices. That might explain why Dyplay Urban Traveller headphones sound cleaner now.

Here are the results for Galaxy Buds+ with the latest Win 11 Beta. It only has "202" for the AAC bitrate - is this the minimum VR bitrate?

 

[samandhi]

Thanks for letting us know.
I was really locked-in to order these once they become available in U.S/ Canada but I'm really hesitant based on reports that the SS has changed with each FW update. :-/

I know what you mean. I was very hesitant to update because of that very issue, but I was being stupid and gave in to the update fever... I should have left well enough alone because I didn't have ANY issues that needed fixing on mine...

It is not to say they are all bad, because they aren't. The first FW that shipped with them was the absolute worst. It was super boosted bass, but also super muddy and boomy. Mids were so recessed you couldn't hardly hear them, and the treble was so rolled off that you could barely make out any sort of clarity. They fixed it, and it got better until the last FW update before 2.17 where they got it just right (in a fun tuned sort of way). Bottom line is that they are currently somewhere in between what they were to begin with, and what they were at that last update (as far as how good they sound).

This changes the order at which I would put my current line-up of TWS:

1. Nuarl N6 Pro
2. Hifiman TWS600
3. Bose Soundsport Free (OG version) tied with Cambridge Audio Melomania Touch

Sorry CA. I don't hate them, but even the SBC only Bose is tied with the MT atm. They sound almost alike save for the 2 or 3k spike and a bit less bass on the Bose (which is actually impressive considering the Bose are open).

 

[DUNU-Topsound]

Hard to buy that with plenty of cheaper stuff with the features. How can Nuarl and CA give good sound and ambient for under $150? Edifier just did dual hybrid with amplifier chip, six mics, ANC, and programmed in a Hi-Res codec for $100.

There are companies that go all-in on TWS with their products, enough to center their entire sales strategy around true wireless. Thus, they structure their entire business around developing true wireless products. We can also do that, if we go out and raise more capital from investors, though that also means the customer pays it back somewhere else down the line, as that means hiring employees dedicated for TWS, changing our sales structure, etc. We've also considered going the crowdfunding route. Again, it takes a readjustment of human and capital resources to get something substantial going. Is it potentially our fault? Perhaps. We did not move fast enough to get ourselves well-positioned to ride the true wireless wave. We also sunk our resources into developing esoterica like metal domed drivers. Doing so means a few less trips to the anechoic chamber certified for testing ANC, and means less money to pay a third party to implement all the microphones for us. An ODM/OEM will probably throw that service in for free if we order, say 20,000 units at once. But because we don't want to be caught in inventory hell, we don't order that many units at once. On the flipside, a company like, say, Pamu, can do push that many units easily, because they're not marketing their products to the enthusiast and instead to Jack and Jill.

 

[Tenlow]

Comparison Sony WF-1000XM4 and Master&Dynamic MW08 Sport

1. Build Quality: That kevlar case of the MW08S is so much nicer and feels way more premium. It seems much more stable/durable, too (no play whatsoever, unlike the Sony case). I also like the three LEDs on the front (one for each bud plus one for the charging case). The M&D case slightly taller while Sony case is a bit wider in dimensions. Both cases offer charging via USB-C as well as wireless charging. The buds themselves are well built on the Sony but maybe a bit chunky, while the MW08S provide a sapphire glas finish and just look and feel gorgeous. Winner: M&D (1:0)
2. Battery life is exceptional on both devices. Up to 12 hours are possible (10 with ANC) on the M&D, while Sony provides 8 hours with ANC and also a possible 12 hours with ANC off. Total (theoretical) battery running times (including the case’s battery) are 36 hours on the Sonys and 42 hours on the MW08S. Both offer quick charge. So, even though both are incredible here, the M&D take the cake ever so slightly. Winner: M&D (2:0)
3. Connectivity is also very impressive on both buds. Both offer Bluetooth 5.2. The XM4 have SBC, AAC and LDAC codecs, while the MW08S offer SBC, AAC and aptX Adaptive. Bluetooth range is pretty much equally as good and stable on both as well. Both don’t offer multipoint connection unfortunately. However, both can use either the left or the right bud while the other one charges in the case. So each bud establishes its own connection and there is no so-called “hero and sidekick” implementation, which is very good. Switching to paired devices is, however, better implemented on the Sonys. You can just directly connect to a previously paired device, while you have to go to bluetooth pairing mode first on the MW08S before you can connect. This minor inconvenience on the M&D make Sony the winner here. Winner: Sony (2:1)
4. Fit/Comfort is highly subjective of course, so I can only speak for myself here. I’m a relatively tall guy (1,90m) and have normal to big ears. Still, I can definitely feel the XM4 more in my ears. At first, they were even a bit painful and my ears had to adjust to the new sore spots, which they luckily did after some time. Now, the XM4 are relatively comfortable even and don’t hurt any more but they are still a bit bulbous and I never forget that I’m wearing them. For me, the MW08S shine in the comfort department. They don’t feel heavy and most of the buds size is “outside” the ear and therefore there are no sore spots or anything like that. They really are supremely comfortable (and stable!) in my ears and I can wear them for several hours without any issues. M&D also provides 5 silicone ear tips + 3 foam tips, while Sony only offers 3 sizes of their new “hybrid foam NC” tips. Winner: M&D (3:1)
5. Passive and active noise isolation is better on the Sony, also partly already due to the aforementioned new tips. They really block out a lot of noise on their own already without any ANC. The MW08S also provide very good passive noise isolation if you use the included foam tips (which is typical for foam tips of course). Still, the XM4 are a bit better here. More importantly, ANC is clearly better on the WF-1000XM4. While the M&D are no slouch and good enough for most situations, the Sony are simply a level higher here and are rightfully called the best ANC buds as of now (together with the Bose buds maybe). ANC is seriously impressive on the XM4. The MW08S have slightly better ANC then the MTW2 from Sennheiser, I would say (just for reference). Winner: Sony (3:2)
6. App support scores the next point for the XM4. While both InEars have an accompanying app, the M&D is fairly sparse in direct comparison. You can set the standard modes for ANC and transparency mode there, rename the buds, set an auto-off timer, turn in-ear detection on or off and install firmware updates. That’s it. Sonys app offers a plethora of features on top of that, like adjusting automatic ambient sound modes, an actually usable 6 band EQ (!), adjusting touch gestures for both sides, the very useful “speak to chat” feature, DSEE Extreme upscaling, showing the currently used codec and even more than that. Winner: Sony (3:3)
7. Audio quality is very good on both offerings. I like the stock tuning of the MW08S better than the XM4’s stock EQ. It is clear, “wide”, with detailed highs and a nice punchy (not muddy) bass response. It’s understandable why the went with a sound signature like this. It will please many people. What makes the XM4 stand out here, though, is that a) they can get louder if needed (I always like that “freedom”) and more importantly they have the previously mentioned EQ in the app that makes them soo versatile sound wise as they really respond well to that EQ! Stock tuning is a bit dark/warm with lacking treble extension and not many details in the highs in general. The EQ, however, solves that “problem” for me entirely and I love how the XM4 sound after EQ. Ultimately, the XM4 win this category because of their EQ. Otherwise, it would have been a draw. Winner: Sony (3:4)
8. Controls are completely different. Sony uses a very responsive and accurate touch control implementation while the Master&Dynamic use tactile physical buttons. You can play/Pause, skip or reverse tracks, (de-) activate ANC and transparency mode and summon your personal assistant like Siri as well as enter pairing mode with no issues on both models. Both work very well and I cannot say that I do have a real preference here. If you do, you might want to consider this, however. Still, for me, the M&D take this round just because you can additionally increase/decrease the volume on the left bud without having to sacrifice another feature for it (which you have to do on the XM4, as of now at least, as you can only set one control scheme per bud and not multiple at the moment). Winner: M&D (4:4)
9. Call quality/microphones are equally ok and very usable. I tested both for a couple of calls and had no complaints on either model. They may not be the best buds around for calls but they work well enough. I cannot say which one is (much) better here, honestly. They're both no Airpods here. Winner: Draw (4:4).
10. Price/Performance ratio and conclusion: It is very much debatable of course. The XM4 are significantly more "affordable" being 70€ less here (279€ vs. 349€) and offer more features as well as the better sound quality (EQ'd!!) and better ANC. They are the more "complete" package/allrounder. So, rationally, the XM4 are the better buy and value for money if you're looking for premium wireless Bluetooth ANC inears. They would also be my pick in this category because of it. That said, in times of the Bowers&Wilkins PI7, e.g. which are even an additional 50€ compared to the MW08S, the MW08S still have a lot going for them (compared to both the XM4 and the PI7 that is). They have that wonderful kevlar case, excellent build quality on the buds (sapphire glas), are more comfortable (to me), have the better total battery life, great controls, offer the much larger selection of included (7, silicone and foam) tips while also sounding very good. I will keep both the XM4 and the MW08S for now as I love them equally at the moment. Time will tell how this feeling develops Winner: You choose

 

[helmutcheese]

Some users have complained that Windows was choosing AAC over AptX on their devices. That might explain why Dyplay Urban Traveller headphones sound cleaner now.

Here are the results for Galaxy Buds+ with the latest Win 11 Beta. It only has "202" for the AAC bitrate - is this the minimum VR bitrate?

I doubt it as I can connect on same earphones at 300k and even 330k (random and it was 285k in my screenshot).

 

[BobJS]

Thanks! However since I'm not in Europe so when being redirected to North America the option to purchase isn't available

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/goi...soon-or-are-we-there-yet.861024/post-16486493

 

[BobJS]

As an FYI, I listed my MTs on the for sale forum and the potential buyer said he contacted CA and they said they have supply chain issues (parts availability etc.) and could not give him a date for restocking. I probably will sell them, for reasons stated. I just have too much stuff and honestly prefer the M1+.

Could you elaborate about what you prefer about the M1+ ?

Thanks

 

[LordToneeus]

How did the S80 sound? Do they have an app?
Do you feel they were worth their asking price?

Bear in mind, this was two years ago, but to me they were a breath of fresh air. There was just such clarity, such neutrality compared to what I had been sampling. I paid $45.99 for them, and I'd still have them if I hadn't gifted them that Christmas.

There was no app back then.

 

[tiagopinto]

I know what you mean. I was very hesitant to update because of that very issue, but I was being stupid and gave in to the update fever... I should have left well enough alone because I didn't have ANY issues that needed fixing on mine...

It is not to say they are all bad, because they aren't. The first FW that shipped with them was the absolute worst. It was super boosted bass, but also super muddy and boomy. Mids were so recessed you couldn't hardly hear them, and the treble was so rolled off that you could barely make out any sort of clarity. They fixed it, and it got better until the last FW update before 2.17 where they got it just right (in a fun tuned sort of way). Bottom line is that they are currently somewhere in between what they were to begin with, and what they were at that last update (as far as how good they sound).

This changes the order at which I would put my current line-up of TWS:

1. Nuarl N6 Pro
2. Hifiman TWS600
3. Bose Soundsport Free (OG version) tied with Cambridge Audio Melomania Touch

Sorry CA. I don't hate them, but even the SBC only Bose is tied with the MT atm. They sound almost alike save for the 2 or 3k spike and a bit less bass on the Bose (which is actually impressive considering the Bose are open).

Well, I confess I haven’t had the guts to pick them up today. I’ve been listening to music through speakers. I really don’t want to face the disappointment of listening to different MT’s...

I’m not selling them as I hope this will be corrected, SOON!

(How can a brand have issues with a product, reach a stable point where more people become interested, have material shortages to continue to push the product... then just decide to release drastic sound signature altering updates, clearly without testing them first (or, at least, clearly after a longer visit to the pub) and then expect people to be happy? I don’t even want to understand... Do they expect to gain customer trust like this? Do they want us to remain interested in their future TWS products? Or interested in more of their products to be able to cross-sell? I just don’t get it...)

We are “it”. The créme de la créme. What better market barometer and testing ground than a few thousand crazies around the world who spend thousands in aural pleasure. And then spend hours daily, gathered around a global forum, discussing where we can get more of that pleasure. Impress us and you’ll impress the world.

 

[acvjim]

I’m not sure I’m ready to call BS. They are a high end IEM manufacturer focused on SQ. Kinda of like Dunu it doesn’t surprise me that this is the approach they are taking. I agree 349 is a bit rich and 299 would be more reasonable given the lack of technology. But I think there is a market for a tws designed solely for sound. Let’s give them a chance. The falcon 2 are well regarded around here.

I thought I'd give a bit of an explanation of my email to clerkpalmer. I think most of us understand how ANC works, but a short description is that sample recordings of ambient noise are taken and played back as inverted sound waves, which results in the waves created by the ambient sound source being cancelled out. ANC headphones do not have separate drivers for producing the inverted waves, and therefore, in the vast majority of ANC headphones, you are asking a single dynamic driver to not only produce waves for your music, but also at the same time to produce inverted waves that cancel out the ambient sound waves. It is also the case that some of the waves being canceled out may involve waves associated with the music you are trying to listen to. It is just plain physics that a single piston type dynamic driver cannot do all that is asked of it in such a scenario without some distortion being introduced into the equation. A good explanation of how ANC works can be found at https://www.headphonesty.com/2020/10/noise-cancelling-vs-noise-isolating/ It is true that some very large companies with millions of dollars in RND have found very good workarounds for such physical limitations, but Noble certainly doesn't have such a budget.

Another aspect of ANC that didn't fit with the FoKus is that the shape of the headphone itself is dictated by ANC. That is why most ANC type headphones generally have the same bulbous or stick type shape. We wanted a semi-custom shape for the FoKus.

 

[scubaphish]

Well, I confess I haven’t had the guts to pick them up today. I’ve been listening to music through speakers. I really don’t want to face the disappointment of listening to different MT’s...

I’m not selling them as I hope this will be corrected, SOON!

(How can a brand have issues with a product, reach a stable point where more people become interested, have material shortages to continue to push the product... then just decide to release drastic sound signature altering updates, clearly without testing them first (or, at least, clearly after a longer visit to the pub) and then expect people to be happy? I don’t even want to understand... Do they expect to gain customer trust like this? Do they want us to remain interested in their future TWS products? Or interested in more of their products to be able to cross-sell? I just don’t get it...)

We are “it”. The créme de la créme. What better market barometer and testing ground than a few thousand crazies around the world who spend thousands in aural pleasure. And then spend hours daily, gathered around a global forum, discussing where we can get more of that pleasure. Impress us and you’ll impress the world.

And to your final point, other manufacturers have/are taking notice of this forum and addressing the community. I think that’s a great way to interact with your most vocal and caring customer base. Kudos to them.I’m seriously impressed with the outreach.

 

[CJYYZ]

I thought I'd give a bit of an explanation of my email to clerkpalmer. I think most of us understand how ANC works, but a short description is that sample recordings of ambient noise are taken and played back as inverted sound waves, which results in the waves created by the ambient sound source being cancelled out. ANC headphones do not have separate drivers for producing the inverted waves, and therefore, in the vast majority of ANC headphones, you are asking a single dynamic driver to not only produce waves for your music, but also at the same time to produce inverted waves that cancel out the ambient sound waves. It is also the case that some of the waves being canceled out may involve waves associated with the music you are trying to listen to. It is just plain physics that a single piston type dynamic driver cannot do all that is asked of it in such a scenario without some distortion being introduced into the equation. A good explanation of how ANC works can be found at https://www.headphonesty.com/2020/10/noise-cancelling-vs-noise-isolating/ It is true that some very large companies with millions of dollars in RND have found very good workarounds for such physical limitations, but Noble certainly doesn't have such a budget.

Another aspect of ANC that didn't fit with the FoKus is that the shape of the headphone itself is dictated by ANC. That is why most ANC type headphones generally have the same bulbous or stick type shape. We wanted a semi-custom shape for the FoKus.

Wow, thanks for the insightful explanation of how ANC works. I never thought of it as negatively impacting sound quality, which is my #1 priority. I suppose even if there was a dedicated ANC driver it would still impact sound quality, but to a lesser degree. I guess I'll cross any buds with ANC off my wish list.

 

[CJYYZ]

I know what you mean. I was very hesitant to update because of that very issue, but I was being stupid and gave in to the update fever... I should have left well enough alone because I didn't have ANY issues that needed fixing on mine...

It is not to say they are all bad, because they aren't. The first FW that shipped with them was the absolute worst. It was super boosted bass, but also super muddy and boomy. Mids were so recessed you couldn't hardly hear them, and the treble was so rolled off that you could barely make out any sort of clarity. They fixed it, and it got better until the last FW update before 2.17 where they got it just right (in a fun tuned sort of way). Bottom line is that they are currently somewhere in between what they were to begin with, and what they were at that last update (as far as how good they sound).

This changes the order at which I would put my current line-up of TWS:

1. Nuarl N6 Pro
2. Hifiman TWS600
3. Bose Soundsport Free (OG version) tied with Cambridge Audio Melomania Touch

Sorry CA. I don't hate them, but even the SBC only Bose is tied with the MT atm. They sound almost alike save for the 2 or 3k spike and a bit less bass on the Bose (which is actually impressive considering the Bose are open).

I don't get it.. The MT seemed to be in a lot of head-fier's top 3, in a super saturated market. Why would they risk that position by messing with the sound signature?

Is there a way to manually roll back to pre-2.17 FW? Do you think CA will fix it in the next update?

EDIT: I'm sure this was an honest mistake on CA's behalf that they'll rectify based on their customer's feedback (no pun intended). They've been around a while and really know their stuff. I was frustrated that I had finally found a set of earbuds that suit my needs, only to have them negatively altered by a FW update.