[morug]

Hello everyone,
 
This is my first post but I know this community has a vast amount of knowledge.
I'm asking this question in hopes of tapping just a bit of that knowledge 

I appreciate any help and advice in advance.
 
I have recently bought a new computer which includes the xonar stx.
 
I would like to spend some money ~1000 dollars on headphones that are worth keeping.
I have searched and read posts and articles (on head-fi as well) but I cannot understand why people say the stx cannot power phones like the HD650 (300ohms) when the stx is supposed to go up to (600ohms).
 
The Hifiman-500 is what I want to buy (38ohms and efficiency 89DB) and I don't understand why the stx cannot handle it.
 
Could the head-fi community please let me (and it seems others are curious as well) know:
 
1. The stx DAC seems to be good and it is being cut short by the amp. Is this true? (specifications please, and please note that the stx has a built in amp - see below for exact specs)
2. If the DAC is being cut short, what amp would be its equal? (specifications please, for example, "you want an amp that has this and this")
3. Given an amp is bought, what is the best possible headphone that will perform well? (specifications please, for example, "given the stx DAC and the amps specs, you want a headphone with these specs, and this headphone has these specs").
4. What is the best possible headphone for the stx without an amp? (specifications please).
 
Though my searching on this topic (and knowing that the stx is popular) I think this thread will bring a lot of new views from beginners who are seriously willing to learn.
I have included the stx specs:
 
Audio Performance
Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
124dB for Front-out,117dB for Headphone-out (600ohms) dB
Input Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
118 dB
Output THD+N at 1kHz:
0.0003% (-110dB) for Front-out, 0.001% (-100dB) for Headphone-out
Input THD+N at 1kHz:
0.0002% (-113dB) for Line-in
Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/192kHz input):
<10Hz to 90KHz
Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage
2 Vrms (5.65 Vp-p)
 
Main Chipset
Audio Processor:
ASUS AV100 High-Definition Sound Processor (Max. 192KHz/24bit)
24-bit D-A Converter of Digital Sources:
Texas Instruments PCM1792A*1 for Front-Out (127dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit)
24-bit A-D Converter for Analog Inputs:
Cirrus-Logic CS5381* 1 (120dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit)
High Fidelity Headphone Amplifier:
Texas Instruments 6120A2*1 (120dB SNR, 100dB THD+N @ Vcc±12V, RL=600Ω, f=1kHz)
 
and there is an article on stereophile that states the stx output impedance is ~10ohms
 
Thanks

 

[PurpleAngel]

In theory, the STX's impedance of 10-Ohms is fine for headphones that are 80-Ohms or higher.
So with headphones under 80-Ohms the 10-Ohm impedance is a negative.
Do people plug 50-Ohm to 62-Ohm headphones into the STX and like the sound, yes.
The Hifiman HE-500 is only 38-Ohms and costs $700?
Is it possible for you to plug the HE-500 into the STX and like the sound, guess you will have to plug in the HE-500 and find out.
 
For around $60 you can get LME49990 op-amps for the STX to improve the audio quality.
 
The STX has a fairly good DAC chip (PCM1972A), so you could always get an external headphone amplifier, with a low impedance for use with the HE-500.
Just plug an external amplifier into the STX's RCA analog outputs (which are affected by whatever op-amps are in the STX)
The Fiio E11 Portable headphone amp. ($65) has a low impedance.
O2 (Objective 2) headphone amp. also has a low impedance ($155)
Matrix M-stage headphone amp. also has a low impedance ($280)
Littlie DOT 1 + Hybrid headphone amp. ($150) I believe it is designed to work with low Ohm headphones.
 
You could also just hook up an external DAC and headphone amp. to the STX's S/PDIF digital output (coaxial or optical).
I think the coaxial is preferred over optical.
 
Or bypass the the STX all together with a USB-S/PDIF external converter, guess it's a great way to get a digital audio signal out of a computer.
 

 

[morug]

Thanks for the very helpful response, PurpleAngel. I will definitely consider buying one of those amps.
 
If I'm understanding correctly, b/c the stx has 10ohm impedance (and given the 1/8th rule) the lower limit is 80ohms.
Is the upper limit still 600ohms? 
 
This would mean that LCD 2 is out (50ohms) unless I buy an amp (which I am willing to do).
 
But I don't understand why the stx would not work for HD650 (300ohms) or even the HD800 (300ohms).
I understand the "$200 soundcard vs. $1500 headphone" arguments but it means nothing to me. 
I would like to actually understand what is missing in the specs. 
 
My audio setup is very important to me (as it is with everyone here). I'm just not super rich so I need to spend money carefully. Most obviously, I don't know much about the technical aspects in audio 

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

Thanks for the very helpful response, PurpleAngel. I will definitely consider buying one of those amps.
 
If I'm understanding correctly, b/c the STX has 10ohm impedance (and given the 1/8th rule) the lower limit is 80ohms.
Is the upper limit still 600ohms? 
 
This would mean that LCD 2 is out (50ohms) unless I buy an amp (which I am willing to do).
 
But I don't understand why the STX would not work for HD650 (300ohms) or even the HD800 (300ohms).
I understand the "$200 sound card vs. $1500 headphone" arguments but it means nothing to me. 
I would like to actually understand what is missing in the specs. 
 
My audio setup is very important to me (as it is with everyone here). I'm just not super rich so I need to spend money carefully. Most obviously, I don't know much about the technical aspects in audio 

(guess I missed part of your question)
The impedance of 10-Ohms only affects headphones under 80-ohms, does not limit (effect?) the upper Ohm range, 99.9999% of the headphones out there are 600-Ohms or less.
I use 32-Ohm and 40-Ohm headphones on my STX and they sound fine to me.
My Essence STX works with my 250-Ohm and 600-Ohm headphones just fine.

 

[olegausany]

I currently own STX with LME49860 opamps (have no clue if 3 times higher price of LME49990 worth the upgrade) and can tell one thing that thing that while STX has no problem driving HD650 (my are currently for sale) but with current configuration they lacking deep bass nest noticeable on classical (have no idea if changing opamps will fix it) but at the same time current configuration is perfect match for D7000 which are only 25 Ohm so if you want headphones you will never regret buying and don't want invest into amp for now get them while you can get them cause they are discontinued. I also tried HD650 with 5 different setups at the recent NYC meet and only Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 was a perfect match for them while others had same problem so they are very picky with the pairing

 

[shamankl]

morug, dont listen to those people who say that the stx sound card is not enough for the hd650. Though it is true that a better amp can make the hd650 sound a lot better, the stx sound card from my knowledge is more than enough to drive it properly. Many of the people that say it is not enough have top quality amps so feel that lower priced one are not enough to do the hd650 justice. They are not wrong but not everyone has the cash to upgrade everything at once.
 
i love my 650 but if u fear not doing them justice take the hd600(more neutral than 650) instead it takes less of the properties of you amp

 

[NamelessPFG]

I'd say that the only headphones the Essence STX's amp cannot handle are electrostatics (Stax, Koss ESP series, Sennheiser Orpheus, etc.), and that's just because the way electrostatic drivers work requires specialized amplification. (It's very likely that, save for the really high-priced SR-007, SR-009, Orpheus HE/60, or HE/90, you'll probably spend more on the amp than the headphones for an electrostatic system.)
 
For more conventional dynamic/moving coil or orthodynamic headphones, you'd at least get some sound out of the STX's amp. Whether said amp would have perfect control over the drivers is another matter entirely, but at least you're hearing something!

 

[extrabigmehdi]

Well, for me the xonar stx handle fine every headphone I tried (especially hd595, srh940, hd800, hd25 II 1). Yep, I think the hd800 works nicely.
I'm not the only who said that the hd800 worked nicely with that kind of soundcard, few head-fier have done the experiment (if you discard some mindless bashing, without any genuine experiment)  , and said it was "better than expected".  Off course there's always be someone  here to remind you that this setup not optimal.
 
 At least the hd800 still sound  "technically" & overall better than my other mid priced cans from the xonar stx (very clean sound, detailed, wide soundstage, smooth treble, but  a bit lacking in bass quantity, and not as fast as I would have hoped).
By the way , this thread encouraged me to get the hd800, even if my source is "only" a xonar stx:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=95106
 
Regarding the srh940, I found them at begin quite bright on the xonar stx, so when I'm reading this thread, perhaps an amp with lower impedance would have helped, I don't know.

My advice to op: get a 300$ - 400$  headphone that you enjoy a lot , rather than a too expensive headphone.
Something technically superior, doesn't always mean "more enjoyable" (your tastes first !) , and having to take care of something expensive is an additional stress. Do you know much it costs to replace the stock cable of hd800 ? More than 200$.

 

[morug]

Hello and Thank you for the responses!
 
Just to let you all know, I'm not just being lazy and I've been reading. Some of the threads that have been helpful are http://www.head-fi.org/t/421890/the-xonar-essence-stx-q-a-tweaking-impressions-thread and http://www.head-fi.org/t/400417/upgrade-to-xonar-essence-or-buy-headphone-amp/90
 
I think the 2nd link exemplifies the confusion.
It seems that most people (including the ones in this thread) agree that the stx works well (not optimal but well) for HD650.
The poster "Wali" uses specifications in a way that I can understand and basically states that the stx can power headphones up to 600ohms (which means it can power most headphones).
 
The other posters 1st of all seem biased against the stx. It seems the stx is a bit ground breaking in that it offers a quality of product at an ridiculously low price.
 
For example, I get the feeling that "moonboy" needs to make it clear that high priced dac/amp combos will sound better than the stx. This point is so obvious I don't understand the wasted energy on posting. 
 
To be fair, both moonboy and uncleErik use some audio-talk that is incomprehensible to me (and I assure you, any other neophyte). 
 
For example:
Moonboy:
1. They don't specify the output impedance. Headphone amps should have 2 selectable output impedances: one low, the other higher around 120 ohms per the IEC spec. Some headphones (Sennheiser HD650, beyerdynamics, AKG K601s for example) sound better when driven by a higher source impedance
2. Maximum output is 2Vrms. This might be a problem with higher impedance headphones, limiting the maximum power delivered.
 
The 1st point doesn't even make sense as I've read that the 10ohm output impedance of the stx is high.
I don't know what the 2nd point means (but the stx is advertised as good esp. for high impedance headphones, so again, what is going on?)
 
UncleErik:
Power is important. To get 140mW out of the card, the input has to be at maximum (e.g. a peak in the music) while the volume is at maximum. Otherwise, it'll loaf along at, say, 25mW. If you have an amp with a maximum output of 500mW, you won't get 500mW unless you have the same circumstances. It will, however, loaf along at 150mW.

When you have a big driver, like that in a Sennheiser, you need enough power to adequately move it back and forth.

Something putting out 25mW is going to leave the Senn sounding muddy, veiled and two dimensional. For someone who hasn't heard a Sennheiser with adequate power, that might sound like the best thing they've ever heard. For someone who has heard a Sennheiser with adequate power, it sounds like crap. Having built and listened to lots of amps, Sennheisers don't really seem to open up and sound good until you plug them into something with about 500mW or more. There's more to amplification than that, but portables, soundcards, et al., just don't cut it.
 
What does this mean?????
and the Texas Instruments 6120A2*1 has 80mWpc into 600ohms NOT 25mW
. 
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa6120a2.pdf
 
 
So, again, why can't the stx work well for the HD650, HD800, or T1??
 
My thinking is buy a flagship now and add on through upgrades rather than buy a headphone that I will never use later.
I will post pictures and give a review of the headphones that I buy if the community is interested.
 
I have a low-fi setup right now (onboard sound card, HD280s, turbine copper, beats studio) and will compare this setup to my new setup (stx + whatever headphone + maybe an amp).
I'm sure there are many who care deeply about music but become so frustrated with the seemingly nonsensical claims (without specs) that they don't bother. 
Perhaps this thread could help them learn with me.
 
Thanks.

 

[morug]

Quote:

 
My advice to op: get a 300$ - 400$  headphone that you enjoy a lot , rather than a too expensive headphone.
Something technically superior, doesn't always mean "more enjoyable" (your tastes first !) , and having to take care of something expensive is an additional stress. Do you know much it costs to replace the stock cable of hd800 ? More than 200$.

 
I agree on the point of enjoyability vs. technicality.
I've read the HD650 is colored and I like that. 
There is a site http://www.headfonia.com/old-school-trio-akg-k701-beyer-dt880-sennheiser-hd650/ that states music is made to be heard on speakers and the teble dissipates - when listening on headphones the treble can be overpowering which is what the HD650s adjust for.
 
I like that - I'm not hear to mix and master music but to enjoy it.

 

[extrabigmehdi]

You'd always find some people that don't like a headphone , no matter the amp used.
It's not everyone that can afford, or just try many different source, but Unkle Erik acknowledged , that with every source he tried he didn't like the k701.
Also I've seen some case of people that didn't like the hd650, even after following the advice of upgrading the source.
There's also the exaggerated case , of people enjoying enjoying their hd800 straight from an mp3 player (I've done the experiment, imho, it sounds like a regular 200-300$ headphone, with an unnatural soundstage).
Let's just say ears and expectations can be differents.
 
Quote:

For example, I get the feeling that "moonboy" needs to make it clear that high priced dac/amp combos will sound better than the stx. This point is so obvious I don't understand the wasted energy on posting. 

If you add placebo to the equation, you realize that nothing is so obvious. Most people underestimate the power of placebo .
Also I guess some people are not seeking true transparency of source.

 

[olegausany]

I will never say that STX can't drive HD650 but it all depends what sound signature you are looking for and what styles of music you are listening to plus changing OPAMPs will affect sound signature. I tried all OPAMPs recommended in STX modification thread which don't need soldering (didn't try THS4032 yet but not sure if they need soldering) and found that for me LME49860 sound best but unfortunately after trying HE-400 and hearing the bass they have while driven by STX for just few minutes I quickly understood what i was missing  all this time. I have no idea maybe LME49990 or THS4032 will make HD650 the way i want but they cost 3 times more than I spent on my current OPAMPs setup plus you can't just return them cause you didn't like them so if I already ever decide to upgrade OPAMPs to something expensive I would rather try Audio-GD ones since i read that the will bring card to a totally different level but if OP wants to get HD650 and than try changing OPAMPs until he finds the sound he wants it his choice. But I being in his shoes based on my experience would rather get D5000/7000 while they still available and which will sound great with almost any gear he may decide to upgrade to while HD650 are too picky with pairing and even having expensive multi thousands setup will not guarantee they will sound at their best

 

[morug]

Hi olegausany - Actually the AHD2000/AHD5000 were in my top choices as well. 
I know they are great headphones with great bass (I like bass) and I was just about to buy them but they are closed and I've read that open is superior to closed.
I can buy the AHD5000 for 550 and the HD650 for 424 (although price isn't a big deal, I think the consensus is that the HD650 is a slightly more preferred by people? at any rate, I would buy the 7000s if I go with denon).
The final hangup I have about 7000s is that they are 25ohms and purpleangel's post suggests stx be used for 80+ohm headphones.
Thanks for bringing denon into the discussion and if you have more information, please let me know as I could seriously consider buying these.

 

[extrabigmehdi]

Personally I disagree that open is superior to closed. I like more my srh940 than my hd595.
I guess you can't generalize too much. The d7000 looks like a good idea, but I  don't know if it matters to you that the model has been recently discontinued (and replaced by the more ugly D7100). Alternatively there's the recent, but more expensive fostex th900.
 
What kind of sound are you looking for ? Or what kind of music do you listen more ? If you think you'll reach your "nirvana" , just by spending 1500$ you might be disappointed. It might be a better idea for that price to get different mid priced headphones, with  different sound signatures.
Or best, go to a place   where you could try headphone before purchasing them (and ideally with the genres/music that matters to you).
 
I've seen some people selling their whole headphone collection after they found something that matched what they wanted.
Recently, it was someone with the yamaha eph-100 iem, selling even his hd800. He admitted that although the hd800 was superior, he could live with this iem only;  and he was short on money too.

 

[olegausany]

Quote:

Hi olegausany - Actually the AHD2000/AHD5000 were in my top choices as well. 
I know they are great headphones with great bass (I like bass) and I was just about to buy them but they are closed and I've read that open is superior to closed.
I can buy the AHD5000 for 550 and the HD650 for 424 (although price isn't a big deal, I think the consensus is that the HD650 is a slightly more preferred by people? at any rate, I would buy the 7000s if I go with denon).
The final hangup I have about 7000s is that they are 25ohms and purpleangel's post suggests stx be used for 80+ohm headphones.
Thanks for bringing denon into the discussion and if you have more information, please let me know as I could seriously consider buying these.

First of all while description says D7000 are closed in reality they are semi-open it means you can still hear some outside sound while listening to the music.  Second of all, as I already said I currently own both STX and D7000 and well aware that D7000 are just 25 Ohm but can say just that D5000/7000 and HE-400 (38 Ohm if i'm not mistaken) are able to produce deep bass most easily noticeable on classical or jazz while HD650 (250 OHM which is in 80+ range) can't when driven by STX headphones amp plus even having amp costing thousands can't guarantee they would. It took me just a few minutes to try HE-400/D5000/7000 and understand what i was missing while using HD650 for over 14 months, that's why they currently for sale. D5000 have noticeably  deeper bass than D7000 nut i prefer more neutral and refined details of D7000 when listening to track as whole