Fostex T60RP
Dec 18, 2018 at 1:32 PM Post #781 of 1,451
20180418_025838_HDR.jpg
Hard to say: https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE5602014.pdf vs. https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE6.pdf. I see about the same 30 Hz and 300 Hz square-waves, so bass will have about the same signature, also the low-end roll-off is pretty similar too. I do see that HE-6 is brighter, but this might be an advantage after all, depending on who's listening.

Seems that you need to buy HE-560 now and tell us what you think. :)
Tyler says one thing about what he listens and another with his graphs despite the fact that HIiroaki told him repeatedly he is dead wrong.

Orthodynamics seem to present a resistive load but they do not. In fact they drive the output impedance of amps wild making it seem like a roller-coaster when graphed across the audible frequency range. In addition frequency response is half the story the other half is phase response.

RP is the (proprietary) regular phase response embodied in the Tx0 RP line for a very long time which is the main reason that live music is immediately recognized from recorded music.

Sony has been incorporating phase correction on their Walkmans since they introduced DSEE and Clear Sound with the S-master amp,

and so do most Pro amps such as the XTi 2 and most recently the the newly released XLS 2 series.

The Sony Walkman ZX300 and higher also offer a variety of RP corrections to be used to match music genres.

There are also software by BBE (Sonic Sweet Turbo offered as a VST plugin that can perfectly be hosted by JRiver) to deal with the RP

and the Coco's EQ's in the Reaper DAW software show you the affect on the phase based on the EQ settings (Reaper is by Justin Frankel the founder of Win amp).

The He- X V2 that provides high end flagship performance from s smart phone and is recommended to not be driven by high powered amps scales up considerably when driven by the XTi2. To properly drive orthos you have to cascade three amps in my case the Sony Pha-3 the ifi Micro DSD and the Crown XTI2 with its stupendous 500 dumping factor. When you do you will see that any Tx0RP destroys Audegy, Ether flow and Hifiman.

I would recommend you try the BBE software and Coco's EQ and multi-band compressors you may like them , you don't have anything to loose.


upload_2018-12-18_20-28-35.png


Tyler says one thing about what he listens and another with his graphs despite the fact that HIiroaki told him repeatedly he is dead wrong.

Orthodynamics seem to present a resistive load but they do not. In fact they drive the output impedance of amps wild making it seem like a roller-coaster when graphed across the audible frequency range. In addition frequency response is half the story the other half is phase response.

RP is the (proprietary) regular phase response embodied in the Tx0 RP line for a very long time which is the main reason that live music is immediately recognized from recorded music.

Sony has been incorporating phase correction on their Walkmans since they introduced DSEE and Clear Sound with the S-master amp,

and so do most Pro amps such as the XTi 2 and most recently the the newly released XLS 2 series.

The Sony Walkman ZX300 and higher also offer a variety of RP corrections to be used to match music genres.

There are also software by BBE (Sonic Sweet Turbo offered as a VST plugin that can perfectly be hosted by JRiver) to deal with the RP

and the Coco's EQ's in the Reaper DAW software show you the affect on the phase based on the EQ settings (Reaper is by Justin Frankel the founder of Win amp).

The He- X V2 that provides high end flagship performance from s smart phone and is recommended to not be driven by high powered amps scales up considerably when driven by the XTi2. To properly drive orthos you have to cascade three amps in my case the Sony Pha-3 the ifi Micro DSD and the Crown XTI2 with its stupendous 500 dumping factor. When you do you will see that any Tx0RP destroys Audegy, Ether flow and Hifiman.

I would recommend you try the BBE software and Coco's EQ and multi-band compressors you may like them , you don't have anything to loose.

babe sonic sweet turbo.png

Why does live music so sound much better:

When we listen to live music, all of the highs and lows reach our ears in the same relationship to each other as when they were created by the instruments. If this same live music were to be recorded and played back through a loudspeaker system, the loudspeaker would introduce frequency-dependent phase shifting. The inductance of the speaker's voice coil creates a stronger impedance as the signal's frequency increases, resulting in a time delay. Consequently, frequency components with large negative phase shifts (high frequencies) arrive at the listener's ear later than signals undergoing small phase shifts (low frequencies). The resultant signal is distorted in the time domain to the listener's ear. Audio material containing sharp transients (e.g., percussive and plucked sounds such as drums, guitar, piano and harpsichord, etc.) suffers the most from this phenomenon, making it seem unfocused, or mushy.

In order to address these problems inherent in basic loudspeaker design, BBE Sound, Inc. has developed a circuit that has two primary functions. The first adjusts the phase relationships of the low, mid and high frequencies. Since a loudspeaker's natural tendency is to add progressively longer delay times to higher frequencies, the BBE sound processing system adds progressively longer delay times to lower frequencies. This creates a kind of "mirror" curve to the time delay curve created by the speaker, neutralizing its phase distortion.

The second major element in the BBE system is the augmentation of the higher and lower frequencies. Loudspeakers tend to be less efficient in their extreme treble and bass ranges. Most sound-reproducing systems include a circuit for boosting high and low frequencies, showing an accepted awareness of the loudspeaker's efficiency problem. The BBE system, however, provides a dynamic, program-driven augmentation which combines with the phase compensation feature to restore the brilliance and clarity of the original live sound. The result is, as one professional journal phrased it, "The most hear able advance in audio technology since high fidelity itself!"
 
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Dec 20, 2018 at 7:02 AM Post #782 of 1,451
Hi all,

So my T60s came in.

So far, some joy, mostly frustration.

They do sound great, more or less as I remember. However...

for the second time now they have rattling in the right ear cup due to certain bass frequencies. I opened it up to tighten the screws, and while this seemed to improve things slightly, it didn't fix them. I'd also note that I was...surprised at how 'loosely' everything is thrown together in there. If you remove the small black screws, nothing is holding the driver in place anymore and it just kinda sits there in the wood cup. To boot, the left ear cup is creaky as all get out (honestly not a real problem when listening to music, but for quiet listening it is certainly noticable).

I'm quite certain the Argon's are going back because I like the T60s more overall. That said, these quality control issues are obnoxious. I bought them B-stock from an authorized reseller, and am thinking I should perhaps try and warranty them. I don't want to have to return them, but I will. This is not my first, not my second, but my third experience with really poor QC (mainly in the form of rattling) with Fostex. I hear Hifiman planars have similar issues with rattling as well. Can I just get some blissful sounding planars without QC issues?(Speaking of which, I swear there is an imbalance with the bass response which favors the left channel as I will feel my left ear 'shake' more, which may or may not also signify a QC issue?)

Anyway, if anyone has any insight, feel free to share. Also, I'm wondering what the $10 baffler upgrade from Mayflower would do, if anything, to help here.

P.S. I took the ZMF proteins off the Argon's and slapped them onto the T60s 'just to see'. Comfort increases (I have big ears), as does this sense of 'space'. The bass is extended and strengthened significantly, but like when I put similar pads on my DT770s, clarity and perhaps highs/mids seem to take a hit. Simplest way to put it is the sound isn't so 'close' anymore, when that clear, 'close' sound is a strength of the T60s *IMO.* If anyone has a better experience with other pads, I'd be interested to know.
 
Dec 20, 2018 at 7:27 AM Post #783 of 1,451
@kintsaki many thanks for your in-depth post, I'll definitely have a look to those plugins. I'll also re-read your post for few more times, to be sure I'm not missing anything. Great info in there!

@mushin1989 , guys...seriously...it's almost Christmas and my pockets are empty now. I already paid for a XBOX One S 1TB on CyberMonday + about 25 disc games & bundles + Kinect so I can play with my kid (and I'm enjoying it every day, especially Dance Party 2019 and Plants vs. Zombies), but please do understand that I'm totally out of money right now so please do not tease me anymore with the T60. :) Let's please agree that T60 sounds like crap during December Holidays, and sound will get much improved somewhere in February, OK? :)

Thanks so much for the insight on the T60, wondering if the drivers can be "enclosed" in some foam/sponge/fleece, so won't touch the wood directly, to minimize somehow the vibrations.
 
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Dec 20, 2018 at 9:21 AM Post #784 of 1,451
Hi all,

So my T60s came in.

So far, some joy, mostly frustration.

They do sound great, more or less as I remember. However...

for the second time now they have rattling in the right ear cup due to certain bass frequencies. I opened it up to tighten the screws, and while this seemed to improve things slightly, it didn't fix them. I'd also note that I was...surprised at how 'loosely' everything is thrown together in there. If you remove the small black screws, nothing is holding the driver in place anymore and it just kinda sits there in the wood cup. To boot, the left ear cup is creaky as all get out (honestly not a real problem when listening to music, but for quiet listening it is certainly noticable).

I'm quite certain the Argon's are going back because I like the T60s more overall. That said, these quality control issues are obnoxious. I bought them B-stock from an authorized reseller, and am thinking I should perhaps try and warranty them. I don't want to have to return them, but I will. This is not my first, not my second, but my third experience with really poor QC (mainly in the form of rattling) with Fostex. I hear Hifiman planars have similar issues with rattling as well. Can I just get some blissful sounding planars without QC issues?(Speaking of which, I swear there is an imbalance with the bass response which favors the left channel as I will feel my left ear 'shake' more, which may or may not also signify a QC issue?)

Anyway, if anyone has any insight, feel free to share. Also, I'm wondering what the $10 baffler upgrade from Mayflower would do, if anything, to help here.

P.S. I took the ZMF proteins off the Argon's and slapped them onto the T60s 'just to see'. Comfort increases (I have big ears), as does this sense of 'space'. The bass is extended and strengthened significantly, but like when I put similar pads on my DT770s, clarity and perhaps highs/mids seem to take a hit. Simplest way to put it is the sound isn't so 'close' anymore, when that clear, 'close' sound is a strength of the T60s *IMO.* If anyone has a better experience with other pads, I'd be interested to know.


Mismatched drivers, especially in the bass are an issue with the Fostex RP drivers.

My Dekoni Blue which I bought directly from Fostex Japan had a noticeable imbalance, I sent it to Fostex and they fixed it and had it back to me in 4 days.Perfect balance after that. I dont know if Fostex is as good in other countries but their Japanese repair team was excellent.

Rattling driver is definitely a QC issue, mine did not rattle at any frequency. I had a slight crackling issue with my first T60 which I fixed by reseating the baffle foam.

I would either return it or have Fostex repair it.

Being a planar fan really sucks, Fostex, Hifiman and Audeze are really the only ones who make good ones and all of them suffer from terrible QC issues.

I think the Fostex RP drivers are the best in terms of long term reliability though, as from what I understand they generally last a long time, so just have to get a good set to start and then your golden. I havent seen as many complains about the RP drivers randomly failing as I do with Hifiman and Audeze.

I really wish a company with Sennheisers attention to quality control would make affordable planars.

The T60 bug got me again as I have ordered another pair lol. Maybe I will get lucky and get a flawless one with no creaking this time!
 
Dec 20, 2018 at 10:23 AM Post #785 of 1,451
Hi all,

So my T60s came in.

So far, some joy, mostly frustration.

They do sound great, more or less as I remember. However...

for the second time now they have rattling in the right ear cup due to certain bass frequencies. I opened it up to tighten the screws, and while this seemed to improve things slightly, it didn't fix them. I'd also note that I was...surprised at how 'loosely' everything is thrown together in there. If you remove the small black screws, nothing is holding the driver in place anymore and it just kinda sits there in the wood cup. To boot, the left ear cup is creaky as all get out (honestly not a real problem when listening to music, but for quiet listening it is certainly noticable).

I'm quite certain the Argon's are going back because I like the T60s more overall. That said, these quality control issues are obnoxious. I bought them B-stock from an authorized reseller, and am thinking I should perhaps try and warranty them. I don't want to have to return them, but I will. This is not my first, not my second, but my third experience with really poor QC (mainly in the form of rattling) with Fostex. I hear Hifiman planars have similar issues with rattling as well. Can I just get some blissful sounding planars without QC issues?(Speaking of which, I swear there is an imbalance with the bass response which favors the left channel as I will feel my left ear 'shake' more, which may or may not also signify a QC issue?)

Anyway, if anyone has any insight, feel free to share. Also, I'm wondering what the $10 baffler upgrade from Mayflower would do, if anything, to help here.

P.S. I took the ZMF proteins off the Argon's and slapped them onto the T60s 'just to see'. Comfort increases (I have big ears), as does this sense of 'space'. The bass is extended and strengthened significantly, but like when I put similar pads on my DT770s, clarity and perhaps highs/mids seem to take a hit. Simplest way to put it is the sound isn't so 'close' anymore, when that clear, 'close' sound is a strength of the T60s *IMO.* If anyone has a better experience with other pads, I'd be interested to know.

Could it perhaps be the fact that they are b stock that the qaulity is not as good? Definitely return them if you are not happy.

I had the same experience with the pads. As you move the driver away from the ear you definitely lose the clarity that fostex intended which is why they used such a thin pad to keep the driver close to the ear. I had to remove them after the quality loss was not worth the comfort gain to me.

The Mayflower mod is terrible. It will make the bass so boomy that the rest of your frequency range will really suffer severe quality loss. I would imagine it making the bass rattling worse by increasing the bass so much.

Generally he rattling is cause by two things with planars. One is that the cup/pad is not making a perfect seal on your ear which is is causing the membrane to have too little pressure resistance and it is flapping uncontrollable off of the magnets making that sounds. The other more likely possibility is there is some dust/dirt that is near the surface of the membrane is causing the rattle which could be potentially cleaned, but since they are.brand new and quite delicate to clean or repair I think your best option just returning them or contacting fostex.
 
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Dec 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM Post #786 of 1,451
Hi all,

So my T60s came in.

So far, some joy, mostly frustration.

They do sound great, more or less as I remember. However...

for the second time now they have rattling in the right ear cup due to certain bass frequencies. I opened it up to tighten the screws, and while this seemed to improve things slightly, it didn't fix them. I'd also note that I was...surprised at how 'loosely' everything is thrown together in there. If you remove the small black screws, nothing is holding the driver in place anymore and it just kinda sits there in the wood cup. To boot, the left ear cup is creaky as all get out (honestly not a real problem when listening to music, but for quiet listening it is certainly noticable).

I'm quite certain the Argon's are going back because I like the T60s more overall. That said, these quality control issues are obnoxious. I bought them B-stock from an authorized reseller, and am thinking I should perhaps try and warranty them. I don't want to have to return them, but I will. This is not my first, not my second, but my third experience with really poor QC (mainly in the form of rattling) with Fostex. I hear Hifiman planars have similar issues with rattling as well. Can I just get some blissful sounding planars without QC issues?(Speaking of which, I swear there is an imbalance with the bass response which favors the left channel as I will feel my left ear 'shake' more, which may or may not also signify a QC issue?)

Anyway, if anyone has any insight, feel free to share. Also, I'm wondering what the $10 baffler upgrade from Mayflower would do, if anything, to help here.

P.S. I took the ZMF proteins off the Argon's and slapped them onto the T60s 'just to see'. Comfort increases (I have big ears), as does this sense of 'space'. The bass is extended and strengthened significantly, but like when I put similar pads on my DT770s, clarity and perhaps highs/mids seem to take a hit. Simplest way to put it is the sound isn't so 'close' anymore, when that clear, 'close' sound is a strength of the T60s *IMO.* If anyone has a better experience with other pads, I'd be interested to know.

I returned mine Monday due to the same QC issues. I was finally able to get rid of the creaking after using the teflon lubricant mentioned earlier but then noticed a bass rattle in the right earcup.

Never had such issues with my mk3 so no idea why Fostex dumbed down quality on the T60rp despite the wooden cups and higher pricetag.
 
Dec 20, 2018 at 4:05 PM Post #787 of 1,451
Dec 20, 2018 at 7:26 PM Post #788 of 1,451
Tha
Not sure if this was published before or not: https://www.kopfhoerer.de/test/fostex-t60rp/. If not, then these are the first measurements (Google translate is our friend).
Comparing with https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-j-r/t50rp-mk3/ makes T60 more flat and with a better bass extension.


T60

vs.

fr-stock.png

T50RP-mk3

However, measurement conditions are not identical, but until we'll find another source, we could take the above for good.

That is a damn good looking FR response! A "fixed" T50. Takes it from being amazing monitor headphone to a nice enjoyable headphone for music.

Here is that websites measurements of the Sennheiser 660s to compare.

upload_2018-12-21_9-21-28.png



Actually not all that different, explains why I also like the 660s a lot lol.

I would guess people who found it too bright were bothered by the 10k peak. On my pair by ear at least I heard it as quite strong in the 9-10k range, so guess my ears work!

Good news is that is very easily fixed by EQ if it is bothersome.

Also this is more confirmation that I dislike headphones with a strong 4k range and prefer them to have a bit of dip as the T60 (and 660s) does. So its nice to have that (probably confirmed)
 
Dec 21, 2018 at 7:29 AM Post #789 of 1,451
[...]

Here is that websites measurements of the Sennheiser 660s to compare.




Actually not all that different, explains why I also like the 660s a lot lol.

[...]

Also this is more confirmation that I dislike headphones with a strong 4k range and prefer them to have a bit of dip as the T60 (and 660s) does. So its nice to have that (probably confirmed)

I feel you, I'm 4K sensitive myself too, this is why I use EQ, to notch down the spikes so I can enjoy the music. :)
 
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Dec 21, 2018 at 2:20 PM Post #790 of 1,451
I so much "hate you" all guys from this thread. Because of you I did that:

"Thank you, your order has been placed.

Order Number: xyz
  • Fostex T60RP Real Mahogany Wood Cups Semi-Open Headphone will be delivered to ...Cambridgeshire.
    United Kingdom
    ...Delivery date: 23 Dec. 2018"
Too bad thay don't deliver to ROU, have no idea why...would it be a pre-Brexit test? :) It's the first time I see Amazon.co.uk is not delivering to ROU, usually some vendor are doing that, but not Amazon itself...strange thing.

Most likely my friend from UK, where I delivered the cans to, will be able to send them to me till spring...I'll see.
However, at 217GBP was a steal, so I simply couldn't resist the offer...and you guy put me on flames with this thread too. :)
Thank you all!

L.E.: I don't need these cans, I have enough cans at home, so...do I need a shrink or what? :)
 
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Dec 21, 2018 at 4:23 PM Post #793 of 1,451
Hey guys, new member here.

I've had two pairs of the T50RP MkIII... I absolutely love them and I think the balance on the T50 is my ideal headphone.

When the T60RP was announced, I was ecstatic. I love the aesthetics and the fact that the wood is real amazes me. They are even better in person, believe me.

When I received my T60, I was relieved when I first listened to them because there actually was a decent amount of bass! I was worried by the comments on here of people saying that they were lacking in that department... which really makes no sense to me after hearing them. I do understand why people would say that the treble seems a bit sharp. I find the treble fatiguing with certain recordings. Gonna order the Schiit Loki and see if that does anything for me.

Overall, though, they seem to have a great balance and I'm super happy with them.

Except... I went to play some Run The Jewels, I noticed that dreaded rumble in the left ear cup... $300 pair of headphones and there's a rumble. Unacceptable in my book. So, I contacted Fostex and will see what they have to say, whether I should send them in for an exchange from Adorama or send them into Fostex for an RMA.

This has happened to me before with a pair of the T50 and those are currently in the early process of an RMA...

I love these headphones when they're working properly. Currently, I have only one pair of Fostex that is working fine, which is a pair of T50RP MkIII... Looks like the T60 will be leaving me soon, as soon as I hear back from Fostex on the issue. To be continued...
 
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Dec 21, 2018 at 4:35 PM Post #794 of 1,451
Hey guys, new member here..
Welcome to Head-Fi! :)

[...]I find the treble fatiguing with certain recordings. Gonna order the Schiit Loki and see if that does anything for me.
Loki won't help you here, just use JRiver/Foobar with Parametric EQ or VST to notch down the exact frequency you need to.

[...]Except... I went to play some Run The Jewels, I noticed that dreaded rumble in the left ear cup... $300 pair of headphones and there's a rumble. Unacceptable in my book. So, I contacted Fostex and will see what they have to say, whether I should send them in for an exchange from Adorama or send them into Fostex for an RMA.
And now you're scaring me...I just got a new pair minutes ago.

[...]Looks like the T60 will be leaving me soon, as soon as I hear back from Fostex on the issue. To be continued...
Looking further for your next input.
 
Dec 21, 2018 at 4:49 PM Post #795 of 1,451
And now you're scaring me...I just got a new pair minutes ago.


Looking further for your next input.

Okay, just want to let you know which track I was listening to: it was Run The Jewels - Run The Jewels (from their self titled album, track 1) toward the end of the track, about 3/4 of the way through when you hear just the beat in the background. Those hard bass hits were causing the left ear cup to rumble at normal listening volume. I tried multiple different pairs of headphones and this didn't happen with any other pairs.
 

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