[buzzlulu]

UpLate & JLoud

Two excellent posts and exactly what I was trying to get at before with my previous comments

You guys were just more eloquent

 

[MacedonianHero]

how do you reconcile your position on this with ownership of totl grados and the z1r for example, which are measurably and subjectively "coloured"? it just seems inconsistent to me to apply these audiophile purist ideals to ancillary gear but not to the headphones that are connected to them. a dac / amp that measures superbly isn't going to flatten a headphone's uneven fr, reduce its thd or make it any less "coloured", more "transparent" or "faithful to the recording" - just sayin'.

Look at what I plug them into...that's were the difference is.

That's why I look for balanced gear upfront. Changing headphones from time to time can be fun for a change, I'm not denying that. But plug into a coloured amp/DAC, then I find things can really get out of control with headphones especially like the ones you mentioned. I can always swap out headphones for a change of pace...but your main rig is always ON (and thus always "coloured")....no changing that. I was specifically referring to the Utopia which are among the least coloured headphones I've heard and thus my preference for a balanced upfront solution.

If someone wants a few different up front solutions, then have it I say. But dang, a DAVE, dCS and MSB setup can be very pricey to own all three! If you're only going to have one source, then I would strongly recommend a neutral setup.

 

[MacedonianHero]

I couldn't care less about how it measures if it doesn't sound musical. If it doesn't move me. I also don't care how the musician intended it to sound. Unless he is buying my gear. Otherwise I want to listen to music that moves me, and sounds the way I prefer. If that is flat for some, then more power to them. For me I'll take the beautiful sound of a good tube amp and let others choose for themselves.

Then that's great for you. As mentioned, you just saved a lot of $, just add some EQ and have fun.

 

[JLoud]

Didn’t really save any money. Don’t care to fiddle with eq. Just bought a variety of headphones and tubes for different flavors and moods. LCD4,LCD3,Utopia,HD800S, Sony z1r and others. The variety is what I enjoy about the hobby. To each his own. It is a very subjective hobby.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Didn’t really save any money. Don’t care to fiddle with eq. Just bought a variety of headphones and tubes for different flavors and moods. LCD4,LCD3,Utopia,HD800S, Sony z1r and others. The variety is what I enjoy about the hobby. To each his own. It is a very subjective hobby.

But I see you have a Yggy...a very natural and balanced source. So I see we do share that preference in common. My comments about distortion where in regards to sources and the Utopia headphones specifically (and exclusively). But when talking about DACs, low distortion and high fidelity to the source material is paramount for me; especially WITH revealing and neutral headphones like the Utopias. And my initial comment was regarding a specific setup using the Focal Utopias.

 

[RHMMMM]

Now that we have a little more momentum in the thread, @JLoud, @MacedonianHero, @buzzlulu, @Zhanming057, and others - would love to know what you guys are using for cables. I'm looking for an upgrade to the Focal cable and would love to hear your thoughts. I'm trying to line up a Heimdall demo and while I like Nordost, I feel like there are better options out there. Primary use would be a portable scenario with my Hugo2.

@MacedonianHero, I read your review on the DanaCables - have you tried others as well or have any comparison/contrast thoughts to the others out there compared to the ones you have now (are you still using those as your primary cables with the Utopias?)

Thanks in advance!

 

[MacedonianHero]

Now that we have a little more momentum in the thread, @JLoud, @MacedonianHero, @buzzlulu, @Zhanming057, and others - would love to know what you guys are using for cables. I'm looking for an upgrade to the Focal cable and would love to hear your thoughts. I'm trying to line up a Heimdall demo and while I like Nordost, I feel like there are better options out there. Primary use would be a portable scenario with my Hugo2.

@MacedonianHero, I read your review on the DanaCables - have you tried others as well or have any comparison/contrast thoughts to the others out there compared to the ones you have now (are you still using those as your primary cables with the Utopias?)

Thanks in advance!

I've owned/reviewed/listened to several since I got my pair 2 years ago. The DanaCable offers a sound stage that is simply amazing! It's tonality is spot on; smooth, but yet very transparent. The Kimber Axios-HB is another outstanding option too. While the sound staging wasn't as expansive, I found its detail retrieval simply out of this world On more of a budget I really enjoyed the Moon Audio Silver Dragon too. Improvement across the board compared to the stock cable (which is surprisingly not very good IMO). All fantastic options IMO.

 

[twsmith]

I've owned/reviewed/listened to several since I got my pair 2 years ago. The DanaCable offers a sound stage that is simply amazing! It's tonality is spot on; smooth, but yet very transparent. The Kimber Axios-HB is another outstanding option too. While the sound staging wasn't as expansive, I found its detail retrieval simply out of this world On more of a budget I really enjoyed the Moon Audio Silver Dragon too. Improvement across the board compared to the stock cable (which is surprisingly not very good IMO). All fantastic options IMO.

I have been using both the Danacable Lazuli Reference and Kimber Axios cables for my Utopia, and agree that they are both excellent. I decided to keep both since my preference for one over the other seems to vary. However I disagree that the stock cable is not very good -- in fact, I think it is surprisingly close to the Lazuli and Axios cables in many ways. I believe other posters have also commented on the overall high quality of the Utopia stock cable. I'm very much aware of the issues regarding high-end cables in general, and the possible roles of placebo effect, confirmation/expectation bias, acclimatization, listener fatigue, etc. in determining cable preferences. I'm sure this also applies to these particular cables as well -- I do think the sound signatures of these cables are definitely different but still similar enough to make them all quite good. Also I'm sure you could say the same thing about any of the other Utopia aftermarket cables that are available but not mentioned here. The take-away point is that there are many excellent cables for the Utopia (including the stock cable) but none should be considered "the best".

 

[up late]

Look at what I plug them into...that's were the difference is.

That's why I look for balanced gear upfront. Changing headphones from time to time can be fun for a change, I'm not denying that. But plug into a coloured amp/DAC, then I find things can really get out of control with headphones especially like the ones you mentioned. I can always swap out headphones for a change of pace...but your main rig is always ON (and thus always "coloured")....no changing that. I was specifically referring to the Utopia which are among the least coloured headphones I've heard and thus my preference for a balanced upfront solution.

If someone wants a few different up front solutions, then have it I say. But dang, a DAVE, dCS and MSB setup can be very pricey to own all three! If you're only going to have one source, then I would strongly recommend a neutral setup.

i don't think this explanation overcomes the contradiction in your earlier posts tbh, regardless of how "neutral", "accurate" and "balanced" you believe your source is. it seems to me that this debate over which dac is "the best" can't be settled on the measurements alone. i've observed that subjective notions of what constitutes accurate sound reproduction along with other factors such as brand prestige, pride of ownership etc., tend to "colour" these disagreements between audiophiles. as @zanming057 wrote in his post: "Chord does have its own signature which some might prefer, and we're all splitting hairs with $10k DAC's of course."

 

[MacedonianHero]

i don't think this explanation overcomes the contradiction in your earlier posts tbh, regardless of how "neutral", "accurate" and "balanced" you believe your source is. it seems to me that this debate over which dac is "the best" can't be settled on the measurements alone. i've observed that subjective notions of what constitutes accurate sound reproduction along with other factors such as brand prestige, pride of ownership etc., tend to "colour" these disagreements between audiophiles. as @zanming057 wrote in his post: "Chord does have its own signature which some might prefer, and we're all splitting hairs with $10k DAC's of course."

As mentioned, a coloured source + coloured headphones can equal a dog's breakfast. Plus a coloured/distorted source will always be in play regardless of what headphones you use. Changing up headphones only affects whatever listening session you're in. A source is all encompassing. And I don't think dCS or MSB are looking to offer coloured sources with "pleasing distortion", they too are trying to minimize distortion and maximize clarity to justify their high price. I'm not aware of a Chord "house sound"...so I don't understand this statement? It's certainly not like a Grado sound that gives a similar character and deviation from neutrality across much of its product line. So it is quite simple, at least to me. YMMV.

 

[Zhanming057]

As mentioned, a coloured source + coloured headphones can equal a dog's breakfast. And I don't think dCS or MSB are looking to offer coloured sources with "pleasing distortion", they too are trying to minimize distortion and maximize clarity. This can quite easily be quantified in a source. So it is quite simple, at least to me. YMMV.

DCS most definitely has a house sound and so does Nagra. Nagra tries quite hard to mask the fact that they use Delta Sigma conversion and while their stuff is superb, you do notice the "non R2R-ness" when you directly a/b them against DCS's R2R-ish implementations.

The best comparison to Chord at the high end is probably Berkeley and Merging. I'm not a huge fan of Merging either but street price on their flagship DAC is less than a new TT2. Berkeley goes for the punch and massive dynamics and it's impressive, if occasionally coming across as artificial.

 

[MacedonianHero]

DCS most definitely has a house sound and so does Nagra. Nagra tries quite hard to mask the fact that they use Delta Sigma conversion and while their stuff is superb, you do notice the "non R2R-ness" when you directly a/b them against DCS's R2R-ish implementations.

The best comparison to Chord at the high end is probably Berkeley and Merging. I'm not a huge fan of Merging either but street price on their flagship DAC is less than a new TT2. Berkeley goes for the punch and massive dynamics and it's impressive, if occasionally coming across as artificial.

I'm a big fan of Berkley's gear, though I personally have never found them "artificial". R2R DACs do have a unique sound (at least the ones I've listened too) and I personally don't find DCS has a "house sound". Delta-sigma DACs for me have ranged all over the place and thus too hard for me to really pin them down.

 

[TSAVJason]

As mentioned, a coloured source + coloured headphones can equal a dog's breakfast. And I don't think dCS or MSB are looking to offer coloured sources with "pleasing distortion", they too are trying to minimize distortion and maximize clarity. This can quite easily be quantified in a source. So it is quite simple, at least to me. YMMV.

Never thought I’d see the day but I do agree with uplate in at least a portion of his statement. I also agree with you on at least a portion of your posture. Subjectivity is involved and spec’s are also involved when determining the quality of a DAC. Accuracy, clocking and neutrality are in fact a DAC’s primary function. When it’s a DAC/Amp it is a slightly different animal. IMO you are both on the same side of 1 argument. So a DAC can be so accurate that it can remove the emotion in the recording. A DAC can also be the difference between ugly and awesome. So my point is if you join in you’re argument you are actually 1 stronger and more inclusive opinion that could include more opinions as a whole.

 

[Zhanming057]

I'm a big fan of Berkley's gear, though I personally have never found them "artificial". R2R DACs do have a unique sound (at least the ones I've listened too) and I personally don't find DCS has a "house sound". Delta-sigma DACs for me have ranged all over the place and thus too hard for me to really pin them down.

I should say the modern DCS ones, the Vivaldi, Rossini and Bartok are very consistent between themselves. I like them but they are also pretty overpriced and DCS really should just build the upsampler into the unit.

The thing I like about the Nagra is that it basically gives you 100% of the functionality in one unit. Everything is upsampled and aside from an LPS that's mostly a theoretical improvement when not driving a preamp or phono, you're getting the final vision of the company. Same criticism goes for Chord and the huge improvement you get from the Mscalar.

The alpha 2 reference's rendition seems to me like it's exaggerating the attack to improve perceived dynamics. A lot of energy and sometimes it's like looking at an overshapened image. But when it works it really does sound magnificent.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Never thought I’d see the day but I do agree with uplate in at least a portion of his statement. I also agree with you on at least a portion of your posture. Subjectivity is involved and spec’s are also involved when determining the quality of a DAC. Accuracy, clocking and neutrality are in fact a DAC’s primary function. When it’s a DAC/Amp it is a slightly different animal. IMO you are both on the same side of 1 argument. So a DAC can be so accurate that it can remove the emotion in the recording. A DAC can also be the difference between ugly and awesome. So my point is if you join in you’re argument you are actually 1 stronger and more inclusive opinion that could include more opinions as a whole.

I'm sorry, but I can't reconcile your comment of "a DAC can be so accurate that it can remove the emotion of a recording"? The more accurate it is, the more of the recording it captures and I don't understand how that can remove emotion; unless it wasn't in the recording originally. Or conversely how a DAC can add emotion if it wasn't contained in the recording? <raises Spock-ian eye brow>