[headstef]

What's the requirement or term for a cable can be consider as "decently made for its purpose"? Is it the material purity? the geometry? the total impedance? or entirely something else?

For signal cable, power cable and digital cable, all of them have same requirements to be able become "decently made for its purpose"?

So, if they are not "decently made for its purpose" the sound will change?

The conducting material purity or the geometry can not affect the sound in an audible way, surely not in headphones.
If a "common" cable is well terminated ensuring good and secure contact, if it has insignificant resistance/impedance compared to the headphone coil, if it does not have strangely high capacitance and inductance, then it is perfectly able to transmit audio signals with extreme accuracy, much beyond the perception limits of the human hearing.
All these can be achieved even with a $ 30 DIY cable. There is nothing in a cable that can magically deteriorate the sound purity, resolution, delicacy, expressiveness of an audio signal. Cables are not appliances, they are conductors among hundreds other conductors found inside appliances. Most cable makers/dealers will never accept this, however, for obvious reasons.

 

[Marutks]

All these can be achieved even with a $ 30 DIY cable. There is nothing in a cable that can magically deteriorate the sound purity, resolution, delicacy, expressiveness of an audio signal.

I agree. I still own some fancy ("pure" and expensive) cables but not because they affect the sound in any way.
I was once offered to buy an overpriced (600 gbp) silver cable at Canjam London. I bought new headphones from Hifonix and
the salesman said I should buy the cable as well. How is this not a scam? I tried their cable and I couldn't hear absolutely no effing difference!

 

[AussieMick]

The conducting material purity or the geometry can not affect the sound in an audible way, surely not in headphones.
If a "common" cable is well terminated ensuring good and secure contact, if it has insignificant resistance/impedance compared to the headphone coil, if it does not have strangely high capacitance and inductance, then it is perfectly able to transmit audio signals with extreme accuracy, much beyond the perception limits of the human hearing.
All these can be achieved even with a $ 30 DIY cable. There is nothing in a cable that can magically deteriorate the sound purity, resolution, delicacy, expressiveness of an audio signal. Cables are not appliances, they are conductors among hundreds other conductors found inside appliances. Most cable makers/dealers will never accept this, however, for obvious reasons.

When you use words like “magically” and finish with a conspiracy theory you undermine the credibility of your argument.

“I’ve not seen any evidence to suggest cable geometry or metal purity can alter an electrical signal as passed from amplifier to headphones. A well-made and well-terminated cable of common quality will do the job just as well.”

Doesn’t that say the same thing, without the aggressive, belittling language? It’s no wonder these discussions deteriorate when the language we use is so emotive. And if we write simply as above, the likelihood of a reasoned response is much higher.

“I think there’s a bit of writing around that discusses materials science and the conductivity of various purities and materials. For example, an arsenic impurity of 0.05% in copper can decrease conductivity by as much as 15%. This can also impact the electrical system of amplifier - cable - headphone, although the degree of audibility is uncertain. Different geometries (especially twisting and braiding) can alter the degree to which a cable can reject radiated EMI and RFI, which in the modern home is problematic. Geometry, dialectic and outer casing also affects how microphonic a cable can be, and hence lower it’s mechanical noise floor.
Again, how audible these things are would seem to be deeply dependent on the noise floor of the entire system, and as such the measurement of individual pieces of the system (the DAC, a cable, etc) might not accurately reflect how the system as a whole might respond.”

That could be a response. Not saying I agree, just trying to present both sides in a way that isn’t emotive and doesn’t invite further emotive response.

 

[Marutks]

 

[up late]

When you use words like “magically” and finish with a conspiracy theory you undermine the credibility of your argument.

“I’ve not seen any evidence to suggest cable geometry or metal purity can alter an electrical signal as passed from amplifier to headphones. A well-made and well-terminated cable of common quality will do the job just as well.”

Doesn’t that say the same thing, without the aggressive, belittling language? It’s no wonder these discussions deteriorate when the language we use is so emotive. And if we write simply as above, the likelihood of a reasoned response is much higher.

“I think there’s a bit of writing around that discusses materials science and the conductivity of various purities and materials. For example, an arsenic impurity of 0.05% in copper can decrease conductivity by as much as 15%. This can also impact the electrical system of amplifier - cable - headphone, although the degree of audibility is uncertain. Different geometries (especially twisting and braiding) can alter the degree to which a cable can reject radiated EMI and RFI, which in the modern home is problematic. Geometry, dialectic and outer casing also affects how microphonic a cable can be, and hence lower it’s mechanical noise floor.
Again, how audible these things are would seem to be deeply dependent on the noise floor of the entire system, and as such the measurement of individual pieces of the system (the DAC, a cable, etc) might not accurately reflect how the system as a whole might respond.”

That could be a response. Not saying I agree, just trying to present both sides in a way that isn’t emotive and doesn’t invite further emotive response.

a the risk of being blunt, i don't think that it's your place to be giving another head-fi member unsolicited advice on how to express himself in a post in order to avoid potential squabbling in the thread. that's best left to the forum moderators if necessary imo. i believe that cable discussions of this nature are regarded as off-topic by the moderators when they are conducted outside of the sound science forum anyway.

 

[AussieMick]

a the risk of being blunt, i don't think that it's your place to be giving another head-fi member unsolicited advice on how to express himself in a post in order to avoid potential squabbling in the thread. that's best left to the forum moderators if necessary imo. i believe that cable discussions of this nature are regarded as off-topic by the moderators when they are conducted outside of the sound science forum anyway.

You’re right, I apologise. I won’t do that again.

As for cables for our headphones, I think those conversations are very on topic. Hearing about people’s experiences with various products is quite interesting to me.

 

[up late]

You’re right, I apologise. I won’t do that again.

As for cables for our headphones, I think those conversations are very on topic. Hearing about people’s experiences with various products is quite interesting to me.

subjective impressions of audio cables are permitted in forum threads as i understand it. i think the two examples that you gave in your post would be regarded by the moderators as off-topic here but appropriate for the sound science forum.

 

[FiGuY1017]

No cable on earth, as long as it is decently made for its purpose, can degrade the sound of a headphone. When you think that you have found a "gem" that offers the best possible reproduction with your headphones, listen with it a lot, really a lot, then make a sudden change to the stock cable, or any other well made budget cable. If you are honest and confident to yourself you will admit that you hear exactly the same sound quality. It is physics and electromagnetism. No conductor has the ability to hide any resolution, to alter the tonality or to add "bad" information. Any changes are many orders of magnitude smaller (in the real mathematical sense) than what the human hearing can perceive.
A demanding audiophile looking always for the highest possible standards should invest in electronics (expensive dacs and amps do make audible differences). Throwing money for cables is such a pitty! "Upgrade" cables is pure marketing emptiness. (It has always been since the '80s.) Buy only for durability, practicality,

No cable on earth, as long as it is decently made for its purpose, can degrade the sound of a headphone. When you think that you have found a "gem" that offers the best possible reproduction with your headphones, listen with it a lot, really a lot, then make a sudden change to the stock cable, or any other well made budget cable. If you are honest and confident to yourself you will admit that you hear exactly the same sound quality. It is physics and electromagnetism. No conductor has the ability to hide any resolution, to alter the tonality or to add "bad" information. Any changes are many orders of magnitude smaller (in the real mathematical sense) than what the human hearing can perceive.
A demanding audiophile looking always for the highest possible standards should invest in electronics (expensive dacs and amps do make audible differences). Throwing money for cables is such a pitty! "Upgrade" cables is pure marketing emptiness. (It has always been since the '80s.) Buy only for durability, practicality, length choice or looks. Never for sound improvement.

length choice or looks. Never for sound improvement.

That's technically not true

We know for instance things such as Impedance, Capacitance can change or alter the sound

The proof dsp is oftentimes used as well, is for an example in my JH Audio Lola Cables with Bass adjustment, so dsp can be built into a cable as well as being impedance mismatched that negatively affects sound quality

 

[Contrails]

So copper cable is the way to go with Nutopias?

 

[headstef]

That's technically not true

We know for instance things such as Impedance, Capacitance can change or alter the sound

The proof dsp is oftentimes used as well, is for an example in my JH Audio Lola Cables with Bass adjustment, so dsp can be built into a cable as well as being impedance mismatched that negatively affects sound quality

Of course cable impedance, capacitance or inductance can have measurable (sometimes audible, too) effects on sound, if they reach at extreme values (non usable for real cable making). That's why I wrote "as long as it is decently made for its purpose". There is no mystery there, these effects are precisely predicted by the lows of electricity and electromagnetics.
Expensive cable makers usually don't use the above factors or any of their real effects when promoting their products. They prefer to use various unsupported (even rediculous) "theories" to target at consumers without technical or theoretical background - or without confidence to the abilities of their healthy hearing. It is sad but commerce and busines work this way.
Some knowledge and research is necessary to avoid adding considerable but useless costs to the already high cost of a TOTL headphone like the Utopia. I can't blame a consumer, however, who pays the high price of an "upgrade" cable, just for good measure. It is a natural need to seek reassurance for doing the best it takes. If it is justified in terms of science or experience is another matter...

 

[FiGuY1017]

Of course cable impedance, capacitance or inductance can have measurable (sometimes audible, too) effects on sound, if they reach at extreme values (non usable for real cable making). That's why I wrote "as long as it is decently made for its purpose". There is no mystery there, these effects are precisely predicted by the lows of electricity and electromagnetics.
Expensive cable makers usually don't use the above factors or any of their real effects when promoting their products. They prefer to use various unsupported (even rediculous) "theories" to target at consumers without technical or theoretical background - or without confidence to the abilities of their healthy hearing. It is sad but commerce and busines work this way.
Some knowledge and research is necessary to avoid adding considerable but useless costs to the already high cost of a TOTL headphone like the Utopia.

I agree there is a lot of filler language used without a doubt

 

[Nomax]

And even today, after more than a year, I still enjoy listening to the Frenchman



Nomax

PS.after many tonal shock performances to my ears yesterday in the store

 

[meomap]

And even today, after more than a year, I still enjoy listening to the Frenchman



Nomax

PS.after many shocks yesterday in the store

Well, some people will call it a Gold Mine.

 

[Nomax]

Well, some people will call it a Gold Mine.

But there were not many real gold nuggets in the store to my ears where I personally say they have their qualities in the high-price segment

NOMAX

PS.nice weekend to all

 

[TDinCali]

I don’t claim to hear differences amongst every cable but I have heard differences between copper alloy and silver cables using the same headphone and chain.