[catscratch]

People don't resent the idea of not having the best. People are afraid of being priced out. The uproar over Sennheiser threatening to discontinue the HD650 and replacing it with an inferior model is because people who cannot afford to spend $1k+ on headphones will suddenly will have a worse headphone market to look forward to.

Again, I hate to tote my own horn here, but I've been around long enough to see the prices in this market climb, and climb... and climb. People would routinely call a sub $1k headphone flagship and devote all of their research and technology to it. Now, flagships are well over $1k, often over $3k, and sub $1k headphones are based on trickle-down technologies, and aren't necessarily better off for it.

Manufacturers want this to be a luxury market, because the profit margins there are higher. But as this becomes a luxury market, enthusiasts are priced out and the hobby starts to disappear for many people. Holding the manufacturers toes in a fire over headphone prices, and giving no quarter over problems in high-price products, is the correct thing to do, if we want to preserve the hobby and keep it affordable.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

People don't resent the idea of not having the best. People are afraid of being priced out. The uproar over Sennheiser threatening to discontinue the HD650 and replacing it with an inferior model is because people who cannot afford to spend $1k+ on headphones will suddenly will have a worse headphone market to look forward to.

Again, I hate to tote my own horn here, but I've been around long enough to see the prices in this market climb, and climb... and climb. People would routinely call a sub $1k headphone flagship and devote all of their research and technology to it. Now, flagships are well over $1k, often over $3k, and sub $1k headphones are based on trickle-down technologies, and aren't necessarily better off for it.

Manufacturers want this to be a luxury market, because the profit margins there are higher. But as this becomes a luxury market, enthusiasts are priced out and the hobby starts to disappear for many people. Holding the manufacturers toes in a fire over headphone prices, and giving no quarter over problems in high-price products, is the correct thing to do, if we want to preserve the hobby and keep it affordable.

The 660s argument is irrelevant because not only does the 660s cost what the 650 did on launch, but the HD600 is still there and the HD700 is priced down. The only complaint is that the 650 may be better than the 660S which is an issue, but it's not a price problem. It's a completely irrelevant argument to this.

You are not priced out of this hobby. You can spend $500 and get a better headphone today than you could have ever gotten for that money ten years ago. For under $1000 you can get an LCD-2C, MrSpeakers Aeon, Focal Elear, and plenty of others. Any of those would have been (and one was) a flagship years ago.

Do you really think manufacturers are making $3000+ headphones because of the profit margins? Come on. How many Utopias is Focal selling versus Elears? How many LCD-4s does Audeze sell versus the lower lines? Do you think HiFiMan is firing out Susvaras at a particularly high pace? Or do you think the HE-400/4xx are far more their "consumer" focus?

No one is getting priced out. We're doing better than ever. Things are amazing in this hobby. People are only complaining because they want their $1000 to buy the best a company has, and (spoiler alert) it won't stay that way. Because this hobby is exploding and companies are able to put research into INCREDIBLE things that most of us will never own.

EDIT: I should specify that I'm saying all this because I looooove Focal for putting this much effort into the Clear, and that it's as cheap as it is, but I also think it's 100% a-okay for everyone else to keep pushing the envelope. When they make these crazy techs, we will get it trickle down like you said, but that's GOOD. We may not have their "best," but their midrange is going to be crazy awesome compared to if they never let themselves develop products where price wasn't an issue.

If companies never put R&D into insanely expensive things, we'll never get these technological leaps that we do.

 

[robertbudding]

People don't resent the idea of not having the best. People are afraid of being priced out. The uproar over Sennheiser threatening to discontinue the HD650 and replacing it with an inferior model is because people who cannot afford to spend $1k+ on headphones will suddenly will have a worse headphone market to look forward to.

Again, I hate to tote my own horn here, but I've been around long enough to see the prices in this market climb, and climb... and climb. People would routinely call a sub $1k headphone flagship and devote all of their research and technology to it. Now, flagships are well over $1k, often over $3k, and sub $1k headphones are based on trickle-down technologies, and aren't necessarily better off for it.

Manufacturers want this to be a luxury market, because the profit margins there are higher. But as this becomes a luxury market, enthusiasts are priced out and the hobby starts to disappear for many people. Holding the manufacturers toes in a fire over headphone prices, and giving no quarter over problems in high-price products, is the correct thing to do, if we want to preserve the hobby and keep it affordable.

You can always buy used. Stay a generation behind the latest and greatest and you'll save a lot of money. Even now you can buy used Facal Elears for $550.

 

[Ekul61]

You can always buy used. Stay a generation behind the latest and greatest and you'll save a lot of money. Even now you can buy used Facal Elears for $550.

Focal shut the used market down with the non transferable warranty.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

Focal shut the used market down with the non transferable warranty.

Doesn't mean you can't buy used. Just means you're shouldering some risk.

 

[robertbudding]

No, there is still a used market. A non-transferrable warranty will just depress prices even more. It's a small risk, as long as Focal will service the headphones out of warranty.

 

[Ekul61]

Doesn't mean you can't buy used. Just means you're shouldering some risk.

I like used. Always a gamble. My .Clears had a speaker go out. Kudos to Stereolab in Pa. Handling the exchange professionally.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Why? Why isn't it? Because headphones aren't "allowed" to be that expensive? Or do super expensive headphones have to be like the Orpheus where they aren't really "production" products?

I don't have the money for any of those TOTL items but I seriously hate the notion of insisting that companies hamstring themselves instead of occasionally trying to make the literal best they're capable of just because a bunch of consumers have a hissy fit that headphones exist that they can't afford.

You don't have to buy them.

Agreed, my perspective may be slanted by my background. First, I work in an industry where we have to defend our pricing constantly, though unlike my industry, headphones aren’t life and death. The other is more relevant, though perhaps no more valid to you. I’ve been an audiophile (more or less) since the early 80’s. I’ve watched the 2 channel world price itself out of existence, I used to go to the CES begging during that time period, most of the attendees were young, like myself. I quit going in 98, one thing I noticed at that point, and from what I hear from Friends who still attend it and the other major show, all the attendees are As old as we are. The two channel is all old men (like me), the vigor and youth is at the headphone sections or shows.

I really began focusing on headphones around 2004, and I’m seeing the same trend in this segment, again this isn’t a life or death industry, so people can choose to spend their money anyway they want too. Plus, it’s entirely an opinion when I think HiFiMan is incapable of producing a product that deserves a $6k price. Their QC, and level of production level of quality isn’t even close. Though in the end the market will take care of itself, if a company can make it selling 10 $60k units a year, go for it, I’ve read several reports that Sennheiser is having significant reorganization and layoffs. Once again, in my opinion, Focal headphone strategy of listening to consumers and dealers, and launching an improved product at a reasonable price point is brilliant.

 

[TSAVJason]

I seriously don't get these complaints about higher end stuff. The Susvara didn't make the HEX go away, the Utopia doesn't mean the Clear isn't available, the LCD-4 and LCD-3 coexist. It makes perfect sense that new, more expensive items will begin to roll out over time.

I could understand people whining if the prices on everything were going up. Like if the HD800 cost $2500 now or something, but they don't. Those items remain, their prices are coming down, and bigger things are reaching further into the stratosphere.

MrSpeakers is still making their $3000 VOCE e-stat even with the Aeon around, and the Ether hasn't vanished, either. The only reason to throw a tantrum about the super-expensive stuff is if you feel entitled to be able to afford the best a company can offer. You're not. No one is. A day will come when a pair of headphones cost $10,000, and almost none of us will even hear them, let alone own them. However, the stuff you can get for $500 that day will be incredible, and we should just be damn happy with that.

It's like watching a bunch of people buying sweet-ass Mustangs and complaining that Lamborghinis exist. It only matters if you care that something better is out there. Basically you're asking companies to stop making literally the best they can, because you want them to only operate within your budget.

Well said and the plus is the tech trickles down like NASCAR & TV’s

Sadly not all things uber expensive are worth the expense. Sometimes it’s just marketing you’re buying. Well, as this old guy once told me in Hotsprings Arkansas, “That dawg don’t hunt”

 

[givemetacos]

Yeah, it's almost as if generations of people brought up by marketers to self-identify based on the products they consume are suddenly attaching their identity to the products they consume. And taking offense at the critique of said products. Weird!

I have to say, the quest for neutrality is not bias. IIRC, based on the research I read, people who are given a group of speakers to listen to without knowing what they are, and then asked to pick out their favorite speaker, pick out the most neutral speaker with startling accuracy - something near 80%? Quoting based on memory here, so I'm probably wrong. But, the gist of it is, if you want to make the most accurate recommendation, that is, the recommendation that will suit the largest group of listeners, then recommend the most neutral gear.

Of course, neutrality in headphones is more complicated than neutrality in speakers. Listening to two point sources right outside of your ears is not the same as listening to a single or double point source a long distance away. Your HRTFs affect the sound coming from a distance, and your brain processes that sound to give you a picture of neutral, but then when you listen to headphones, the sound isn't affected by the shape of your head, but your brain still processes it as if it was, and now leads you astray. So it could very well be that two people listening to the same pair of headphones hear differently. But how differently? What's the specificity with which people pick out the most neutral headphones? That I don't know. But hell, we don't even exactly know what neutral in a headphone looks like, anyway, this field is all so, so new.

Regardless, the pursuit of neutrality is important. Throwing up our hands and saying "it's all relative" is not the right course. There probably is variance based on how people hear, and there will always be a niche for off-neutral headphones, but you just need to look at the history of this hobby and all the snake oil salesmen that have infested it to see what total subjectivism gets you.

You can actually hear for yourself what an HD600 playing pink noise sounds like to 10 different people in this video (start around 11:00). It is astounding how different our individual HRTFs change our perception of sound and it is exactly why "neutral" in headphone is far more difficult than in speakers.

 

[paul30d]

Well said and the plus is the tech trickles down like NASCAR & TV’s

Sadly not all things uber expensive are worth the expense. Sometimes it’s just marketing you’re buying.

Cables maybe??

Why are manufacturers making $5k, 10k or 20k headphone systems? I suppose it's partly because they see a market there (and if you can make money selling to that market, then why not).

Perhaps it is also just good advertising for the brand. It's like saying why does Ferrari sponsor an F1 team. Part of it would be for the R&D that can trickle down. But part is just the prestige, credibility or marketability it gives to their brand and the sales that this attracts. I am sure that companies like Focal, Audeze, Hifiman want to demonstrate that they are capable of building the best, and convince people that the knowledge will filter down into their lower priced products.

Perhaps it is also pandering to reviewers. Because these online reviewers are enthusiasts, they will eagerly review a TOTL headphone and rave about the sound quality - that helps the brand as well. Try to get them to review a new $200 headphone - you probably have to fall in line with 20 other models.

 

[cskippy]

What's confused me about the different HRTF's and such is that yeah, we all hear things differently but we grew up hearing the same sounds differently all of our life. What I'm saying is, two people hear the McDonald's jingle and know what it sounds like even though if we recorded their HRTF's they wouldn't be the same. So we correlate sounds based on experience and can agree that certain things sound the same. This probably came out wrong but I hope my point makes sense.

 

[headr]

What's confused me about the different HRTF's and such is that yeah, we all hear things differently but we grew up hearing the same sounds differently all of our life. What I'm saying is, two people hear the McDonald's jingle and know what it sounds like even though if we recorded their HRTF's they wouldn't be the same. So we correlate sounds based on experience and can agree that certain things sound the same. This probably came out wrong but I hope my point makes sense.

I'm 3 rum/egg nogs deep and I've stopped keeping track of the bourbon bottle but this made sense to me.

What you described is exactly why the HRTF is much less of a problem for speakers. With speakers - neutral is neutral. We have our individual HRTF and we process speakers in mostly the same way. Differences between HRTF between person to person processing sound from a speaker system will be fairly small in general (although can still deviate, which is why non-neutral measuring speaker options are always good, to add diversity to the marketplace).

With headphones however, you are creating a fundamentally unnatural listening environment, you are isolating for almost every variable including distance, surface reflections, depth of field processing, spatial processing, and so on. This makes the individual HRTF very much heightened and acute in processing the sound signals from two drivers hanging extremely close to the individual's ears. This is an impossible problem to solve for everybody, and so manufacturers target the general HRTF.

This is partially why I think, as audio reviewers, people should stop pretending they can speak for the general population. You can only speak for yourself and your own reaction to a headphone's frequency response and so on. No one can pretend to have a "perfectly average" HRTF (whatever that even means), and imagining what it is like to process sound as if you were someone who does is kind of like imagining how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. It's a frivolous exercise in philosophical pontification that ends in a confused mess.

Interesting further relevant reading on this is Thomas Nagel's seminal philosophy work, What is it Like to Be a Bat?. Some good new years eve reading if you have had the right number of drinks...

 

[cskippy]

That makes some sense. I'll have to do some more research in this area.

 

[franz12]

From what I heard, Clear does not seem to scale up with a high-end amp. Even though, totl phone markets are growing, amp markets seem to be destined to be shrinking as effeciency improves