[Mimouille]

One word, you need to let your ear do the listening on modded 1A/Z. It'll dispel all doubt.

Apostate unbeliebers, begone! lol

I just find it funny, no offense Mim

If only I could have two units side by side...

 

[Mimouille]

Thanks for the answer guys, but I am still not convinced. The upgrade include PW cable. This is a copper cable, which at it's real price should cost less than the Van Den Hull cable put in the WM1Z. I doubt the rest of the components have a huge cost. Especially for the WM1Z, which is the cost no objective flagship, these mods would entail only very marginal costs.

But in any case, all these debates always boil down to : I heard it, it makes a difference / it doesn't.

 

[echineko]

Spoiler

Thanks for the answer guys, but I am still not convinced. The upgrade include PW cable. This is a copper cable, which at it's real price should cost less than the Van Den Hull cable put in the WM1Z. I doubt the rest of the components have a huge cost. Especially for the WM1Z, which is the cost no objective flagship, these mods would entail only very marginal costs.

But in any case, all these debates always boil down to : I heard it, it makes a difference / it doesn't.

On a related note, I hope to be able to compare my stock 1Z with a modded version when I’m down for Canjam later this month.

Will you be around?

 

[Mimouille]

On a related note, I hope to be able to compare my stock 1Z with a modded version when I’m down for Canjam later this month.

Will you be around?

Where is Canjam? Sg? Nope can't make the trip sorry. I wish.

I hope the differences are significant, not the type where you have to concentrate until you get a headache.

 

[echineko]

Where is Canjam? Sg? Nope can't make the trip sorry. I wish.

Yeah, SG. I’m not entirely convinced myself, let’s see if I’m converted by a comparison

 

[Mimouille]

Yeah, SG. I’m not entirely convinced myself, let’s see if I’m converted by a comparison

If you have maybe we can get a discount for two units

 

[fuhransahis]

@Mimouille always on overpriced cable patrol

 

[Mimouille]

@Mimouille always on overpriced cable patrol

 

[ctsooner22]

The main reason is cost. About 30 years ago, an engineering team was asked by the management to go all-out and create the best they could without any cost restriction. The baby born out of this development was the HE-90, or more commonly knows as the Sennheiser Orpheus that sold for $16,000 a piece. A true story. If I find the article, I will share it here. $16,000 doesn't seem a lot in this hobby these days. But this was back in the early 90s, so you could imagine. The upper management usually establishes a manufacturing-cost/unit, that the R&D team has to stick to. Due to these cost restrictions, they are limited on what parts they could or could not use.

This is a very true story. John Bovier who is the senior VP of sales shared the same story with me

 

[EagleWings]

Please Note: Some assumptions ahead..

The upgrade include PW cable. This is a copper cable, which at it's real price should cost less than the Van Den Hull cable put in the WM1Z.

If I remember correctly, the stock cable inside the 1Z is a OFC or OCC copper from Kimber Kable and not the Van Del Hull. Although the real price of the PWAudio Copper Cable would cost less to manufacture, PWAudio is probably not going to sell it to Sony without a good profit. Sure, Sony could engineer its own cables. But, what if Sony did not have an R&D team for these type of analog cables and would have had to establish a new team for it, which would ultimately result in the same price of the cable.

Especially for the WM1Z, which is the cost no objective flagship.

In my opinion, 1Z is not a cost-no-objective-flagship. All they did was, take the internals of the 1A, swap a couple of components for better ones, and then switch the body to copper and plate it with gold.

That does not mean that the 1Z doesn't sound good or that I don't like it. I tried both 1A and 1Z at a Canjam and was able to hear the difference even on the noisy show floor. While the difference in SQ between 1A and 1Z exists, it cannot be attributed to cost-no-objective-engineering. It seems like, they took the short cut like A&K. They switched the body and a few components. They heard a decent difference and the SQ must have been on the same level as the AK380. Market research would have shown them that, people are ready to pay $3k for a good sounding DAP. It seems like, what dictated the final Retail Price of the 1Z here was the market, and not the cost of production. I am willing to bet that the cost of producing a single unit of 1Z is not more than $500.

Apart from earning profits, I am sure this move would have also helped with their product segmentation to attract customers, who would like to pay a premium price for luxury products. And would have also helped the company to position itself as a manufacturer of luxury products.

these mods would entail only very marginal costs.

Yep, its bit of an annoying thing in the world of electronics. We see very good products everyday where the manufacturer could have used a certain high quality part. But then, even a marginal increase in cost, would cut into their profits. Let's say it costs $500 to manufacture the 1Z with the Kimber Kable, and it costs $20 more per unit if they wanted to go with the PWAudio cable. Sure the $20 seems marginal. But $20 x 100,000 units = $2 Million. Why sacrifice $2M, when they could sell the same product with a a cheaper part?

 

[Rin1990]

Man...all these high end impressions on stuffs that I never got a chance to hear just makes me drool...now I am green with envy to you guys. Green, I tell you.

 

[Mimouille]

Please Note: Some assumptions ahead..



If I remember correctly, the stock cable inside the 1Z is a OFC or OCC copper from Kimber Kable and not the Van Del Hull. Although the real price of the PWAudio Copper Cable would cost less to manufacture, PWAudio is probably not going to sell it to Sony without a good profit. Sure, Sony could engineer its own cables. But, what if Sony did not have an R&D team for these type of analog cables and would have had to establish a new team for it, which would ultimately result in the same price of the cable.



In my opinion, 1Z is not a cost-no-objective-flagship. Someone on the Sony 1Z thread, called the 1Z an engineering marvel. Based on what I have read and seen (internals), there was not much engineering needed once they had created the 1A. All they did was, take the internals of the 1A, swap a couple of components for better ones, and then switch the body to copper and plate it with gold.

That does not mean that the 1Z doesn't sound good or that I don't like it. I tried both 1A and 1Z at a Canjam and was able to hear the difference even on the noisy show floor. While the difference in SQ between 1A and 1Z exists, it cannot be attributed to cost-no-objective-engineering. It seems like they took the short cut like A&K. They switched the body and a few components. They heard a decent difference and the SQ must have been on the same level as the AK380. Market research would have shown them that, people are ready to pay $3k for a good sounding DAP. So regardless of how much engineering effort went into improving the sound of the 1A to create the 1Z, it seems like, what dictated the final Retail Price of the 1Z here was the market, and not the cost of production. I am willing to bet that the cost of producing a single unit of 1Z is not more than $500.

Apart from earning profits, I am sure this move would have also helped with their product segmentation to attract customers who would like to pay a premium price for luxury products. And would have also helped the company to position itself as a manufacturer of luxury products.



Yep, its bit of an annoying thing in the world of electronics. We see very good products everyday where the manufacturer could have used a certain high quality part. But then, even a marginal increase in cost, would cut into their profits. Let's say it costs $500 to manufacture the 1Z with the Kimber Kable, and it costs $20 more per unit if they wanted to go with the PWAudio cable. Sure the $20 seems marginal. But $20 x 10,000 units = $2 Million. Why sacrifice $2M, when they could sell the same product with a a cheaper part?

This all makes sense. But I have very strong doubts about PW Audio claims. I highly doubt they have spent much time or money in "engineering" the 1960. When I asked, any explanation as to why the 1960 was more expensive than silver core cables was shady at best. The rest of the mods seem quite simple.

I would have much less doubt when it was someone like Vinnie from RWA.

Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread.

 

[crinacle]

I find the MS mod to be very "surface level" modding, at least relative to the really extensive stuff I've seen.

Relative to the Ryuzoh AK70 mod, for instance: replacement of the capacitors, circuitry and power supply (along with the standard shielding implements) resulted in not only a drastically improved sound (even to my skeptical self) but also measurable differences in THD (flattened and reduced). OI also dropped from 3.5 (insanely high for sensitive BA IEMs) right down to 0.4. That man is undoubtedly a magician when it comes to source tinkering. MS' mods (as much as I love you guys) seems to be maximising exotic materials for the sake of filling headroom, rather than pushing the headroom up like Ryuzoh does.

 

[EagleWings]

Mods from Vinnie and Ryuzoh seem to be hard core. I would love to get my LPG modded by Ryuzoh. But it costs $1.5k because modding the LPG apparently is quite complex.

 

[Mimouille]

Mods from Vinnie and Ryuzoh seem to be hard core. I would love to get my LPG modded by Ryuzoh. But it costs $1.5k because modding the LPG apparently is quite complex.

Yeah I talked to him about that...I cannot double the price of the player.